HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-11/14/2002 HEAR Page 2-Public Hearing
November 14,2002-Regular Meeting
Southold Town Board of Appeals
SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS
TRANSCRIPT OF HEARINGS CHAIRMAN:Thank you Mrs.Tortora.Mr.Orlando.
HELD NOVEMBER 14,2002
MEMBER ORLANDO:Your neighbor uses that as a driveway just because its kind of on his property and not on
(Prepared by Jessica Boger) your property,because I saw it also and I was kind of confused.I drove up there,and I was like-this is not a road-
this is a driveway.
Present were:
Chairman Gerard Goehringer MR.WEST:It's always been a right-of-way,obviously,supposedly.
Member Lydia Tortora
Member George Homing MEMBER ORLANDO:He just took the initiative because it's on his property,and it's not on yours.Squatters
Member Ruth Olivia(arrived 6:44 p.m.) rights on the right-of-way.And the Kennedy property's not vacant anymore obviously?
Member Vincent Orlando
Secretary Paula Quintieri MR.WEST:No.I have neighbors there. I don't have a right-of-way there though.
PUBLIC HEARINGS: MEMBER ORLANDO:No.I think the right-of-way is gone.No questions.
6:39 pm Appl.No.5223-DANIEL WEST.This is a request for a Variance under Section 100-244B,based on the CHAIRMAN:Mr.Homing.
Building Department's July 27,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for permission to construct additionstalterations to an
existing dwelling,part of which is located at less than 35'from the front property line facing a private right-of-way. MEMBER HORNING:Do you know what percent your lot coverage is right now?
120 Private Road,665 Goose Creek Lane,Southold;Parcel 77-3-24.
MR.WEST:No,I don't,but I could figure it up for you.
CHAIRMAN:Is there someone here for this meeting?Can you please come up,sir and state your name,use the
mike. MEMBER HORNING:There's no change in the lot coverage,correct?
DAN WEST:I am Dan West. CHAIRMAN:The Notice of Disapproval says 15. Anything else George?
CHAIRMAN: How do you do?We are taking this down with a brand new system tonight,and we ask everybody MEMBER HORNING:No.
to speak as clearly as possible. What would you like to tell us?
CHAIRMAN:While you're standing,is there anyone in the audience who would like to speak for or against this
MR.WEST: Ion looking for a variance on a push-out addition.Ion surrounded by right-of-ways.I think you have application? Seeing no hands,III make a motion closing the hearing,reserving decision until later.
a survey.Ion looking to add on for a little room on a first floor for future use for my mother who's just had a hip
replacement and also a knee replacement,and also I'nm looking in the future for putting her on the first floor,and I PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION
have a bathroom adjacent to that future room,and my right-of-ways if I can make myself clear here.The one right-
of-way is Goose Creek Lane. Everyone on that road,that's what they use for their front yard,but since I have
another right-of-way on the side,I'm encroaching.I sent pictures.That right-of-way is being used by my next door
neighbors.They have a driveway on it and grass and lawn,which is fine,and they are all nice trees in between us,
so I'm hoping that it's not going to be a deterrent at all.It's a one-story addition,and that's that. I have plans in case 6:45 pm Appl.No.5213-THOMAS VLAHOS.This is a request for a Variance under Section 100-244B,based
you want to see it. on the Building Department's August 20,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for permission to construct a second-floor
addition to an existing dwelling over the rear portion which has a nonconforming location at less than 35'from the
CHAIRMAN:III take a look at them for a second.Well go round about before the board.You don't have an extra rear property line.250 Summit Drive,Cpt.Kidd Estates,Mattituck;Parcel 106-2-9.
set that we can keep,do you?I have no objection to your application. Well go over to Mrs.Tortora.
CHAIRMAN: Good evening,sir,how are you?Please state your name for the record.
MEMBER TORTORA: I just want to get a few things on the record.You actually have 3 right-of-ways,excuse
me,3 front yards.The one in the rear yard which is kind of porous back there,I was very hard pressed to find a TOM VLAHOS:Hello. My name is Tom Vlahos.
road,and Goose Creek Lane,and then the side yard which is also a right-of-way-what we call a paper right-of-way
because there's no road there. CHAIRMAN:It is my understanding you want to do some renovations to your house.
MR.WEST: Right,exactly. MR.VLAHOS:Yes,sir.And the reason I want to do this is we have two old ladies,one 90,one 96,they have
nobody else but us.When they come out,they need a bedroom for themselves.We have to look out for them.I
MEMBER TORTORA:Also here we have a-I just want to put in the record that this construction is in what we also have three grandchildren that Ile to visit me when they come around.If I have the space,they will come and
would typically refer to as a side yard,and that you would not be encroaching into the Goose Creek Lane,and in visit me,otherwise it won't be easy.But mostly it's for the old ladies because right now we split the time. My wife
fact,from Goose Creek Lane,with the proposed addition,you All exceed the code required setback and have a stays behind to look after them,and I come here.Then I go there and she comes here.It's very difficult.
setback of 41'.
CHAIRMAN: So,they're actually going to move in with you?
MR.WEST:Right.Thank you.
MR.VLAHOS:Yes.
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CHAIRMAN:Now,looking at the survey,your house is only I F from the rear property line. CHAIRMAN:While yo&e standing there,Ill ask the question,is there anybody else in the audience who would
like to speak for or against the application?Yes,ma'am,could you use the mike over here?Good evening.
MR.VLAHOS: From the rear property line,yes.
MS.PAULA GABLEMAN:I%n the house right behind the Vlahos's and I have no objection.Actually,we are all
CHAIRMAN: Well well start with Mr.Homing.Mr.Horning,any questions for Mr.Vlahos? here,the neighbors to tell you we have no objection.
MEMBER HORNING:Actually,this is the fellow I want to ask about the lot coverage. CHAIRMAN:Anybody else like to speak?We thank you for coming in and sharing that with us.If there's no
other questions,I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later.
CHAIRMAN:Let's see what his Notice of Disapproval says.No change.Well,really,I think,based upon that,I
think it's a second story addition,and that's basically,I think a full second story. PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION
MEMBER ORLANDO:Sir,does your 2''story addition go beyond the original footprint of the house. ***
MR.VLAHOS:No. It just goes straight up.Right now the attic I have is 8'high the ceiling of the attic.Actually it 6:50 pm AppL No.5195-DIANE DUNBAR.This is a request for a Variance under Section 100-244B,based on
will go like this instead of the way it is. It won%be too high.From the back it's a walk-in.That's the way the old the Building Department's July 9,2002 Notice of Disapproval,regarding proposed additionslalterations to an
ladies will come in. existing dwelling in a nonconforming location at less than 3S'from the front property line.615 Dogwood Lane,
East Marion;Parcel 37-1-11.
MEMBER ORLANDO:Those are young,90,96.
DIANE DUNBAR:Hello.
MR,VLAHOS:They are young in heart really.
CHAIRMAN:What would you like to tell us?
CHAIRMAN:Anything else,Vince?
MS.DUNBAR:What we would like to do is convert a small two bedroom summer home into an all-year-round
MEMBER ORLANDO:That's it,I just wanted to see that there was zero change, home because we are planning on moving out here permanently.We are proposing an extension to enlarge the
kitchen and add a dining room.The setback problem occurs because we want to change the breezeway into a den,
CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Tortora? enclose it permanently to a den/TV room,and convert the garage to a master bedroom.When the house was
originally built,dogwood Lane to the south here was a dead end.There were no other houses.Dogwood lane did
MEMBER TORTORA:No,actually when I went out on inspection,Mr.Vlahos and his wife were very kind and not curve around,there were no other houses here.Nothing was ever supposed to be built here. When the two
invited mein and I came in and was able to see exactly what they propose. What it appears is they have a second women that died owned that property whoever inherited it changed that.Then they put Dogwood Lane in.So,now
story now that doesn't meet code because the roof comes down in a way that they don%have the required height.It I'm on a comer.That's the problem,I have two fronts.That's what they explained to me.
also appears that the stairway doesn%meet code.They are really very limited on the upstairs space at this time.Mr.
Vlahos and his wife indicated that they were going to go upstairs and put their young relatives downstairs.I'd also CHAIRMAN:Thats correct.
like to say that the encroachment in the rear yard,Mr.Vlahos indicated to me that it does not have a CO. He was
not informed that he needed one.You correct me anytime I'm wrong,but I would like to note that the property MS.DUNBAR:That's why I need a variance.The garage and breezeway were already there. We just want to
meets the code as far as the setbacks on the side yards,and it also far exceeds the code on the front yard setback and convert them.
the addition would be in kind right over the existing foundation.That was my observations.
CHAIRMAN:The garage is already 18'7".I don%have any objections to this application.Mrs.Olivia,any
CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Olivia. questions?
MEMBER OLIVIA: I also went to see it,and I understand that you just want to really push those door windows up MEMBER OLIVIA:No,we went out there and looked at it.They do have a problem with the two front yards that
and make a second story there.I see that you would have no infringement on your neighbors,even with the I P way,and everybody is so different down there.I see your neighbor has no objection either. I don%see any problem
setback. with it.
MR.VLAHOS:I have good neighbors. CHAIRMAN:Thank you,Mrs.Tortora?
MEMBER OLIVIA:It's nice to have young people with you. MEMBER TORTORA:I have no objection.
MR.VLAHOS:They look at me like I%n god sometimes,to go and get medication and drive them around,take CHAIRMAN:Mr.Orlando?
them to church in the morning.It's fun,really,because they have nobody else,I'm the only one.I%n going to get the
blessing,that's for sure. MEMBER ORLANDO:I don%have any questions.But I%n glad you cleared up what happened next door to you
because I was looking at this when I was there,and I couldn%understand why the 18.7 was disapproved when it was
MEMBER OLIVIA:That's right.And hope that your children will be as good to you. already pre-existing.
MR.VLAHOS:I hope so,it will be an example. MS.DUNBAR:It was a dead-end.
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MEMBER TORTORA:You want to add to that,right?
MEMBER ORLANDO:That's why.You just answered my question.
MR.KLINGE:A second story above that.We want to add a bathroom.
MS.DUNBAR:There was a little path through the woods.That was it.
CHAIRMAN:For the whole distance of that?
MEMBER ORLANDO:No questions.
MR.KLINGE:A bathroom and a laundry room.
CHAIRMAN:Mr.Horning.
MEMBER OLIVIA: Do you have a survey,without a survey,it's very difficult to when you're talking about north,
MEMBER HORNING:No questions. south-we have nothing that indicates that.
CHARIMAN:Anything else you'd like to add? MERYL KRAMER:I have a survey that shows the existing 7"projection to which we want to add.
MS.DUNBAR:No,but I can give you letters from my neighbor. MEMBER OLIVIA:Do you have extra copies?
CHAIRMAN:Oh great,surely.I know we have one. Is there anybody who would like to speak for or against this MS.KRAMER:I know that some of you visited the site,I wanted to just bring some photographs for everybody
application?Seeing no hands III snake a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. elsejust to see.
PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION CHAIRMAN:III look at it again. I just want to see that side yard.
MS.KRAMER:The side yard is right here.The existing one story that we want to put on top of it.I just want to
6:55 pm Appl.No.5201-RORY KLINGE and CAROL RAND.This is a Variance under Sections 100-242A show you that across the street,there is a similar construction.It was hard to get a photograph,but I just wanted to
and 100-244,based on the Building Department's July 24,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for permission to construct show the streetscape that every house is very close together,and that this neighborhood is very small lots.
additions and alterations to an existing dwelling in a nonconforming setback,and less than 35'from the front lot
line,less than 10'on a single side,and less than 25'for both side yards.Location of Property:420 Sterling Place, MEMBER ORLANDO:But you need another variance to build a second story with the setbacks.
Greenport;Parcel 34-3-17.
MEMBER TORTORA:Can we take-Paula,is there any shots because this really shows us what we need to know.
RORY KLINGE:My name is Rory Klinge,my wife Carol could not be here tonight. This shows what is there and what's not there.
CHAIRMAN:Who is this young lady? CHAIRMAN:Because of the new system,I don't know if we should take Paula out of here. We can at least turn it
on at a break and copy it. Ifthat's alright with you.
MR.KLINGE:This is Meryl Kramer,our architect.
MEMBER TORTORA:When you amended this application,I saw the dimensions you originally put.When you
CHAIRMAN:She looks very familiar.I think the last time we saty her was on a Bay Shore Road issue. What amended the application,did you update those from the dimensions that you originally submitted with this
would you like to tell us? application?
MR.KLINGE:We are looking to expand and renovate our home in Greenport. Our lot is a pre-existing non- MS.KRAMER:Yes.
conforming lot-on one side there's less than a foot setback from our neighbors property.We are looking to add,put
some additions to the house,and to renovate.My wife is due with her first baby and my 4"child in January. One of MEMBER TORTORA:What we have here,the 15x11 x6,everything is identical,nothing has changed?
the rooms we are looking to add on is a nursery onto the north side of the property,which would not have the
required setbacks.We are looking for a variance on that. We are putting a second story bathroom over an existing MS.KRAMER:Actually,the additions that we amended from was not the 7"submitted. It was less.It was 1.5.
addition,which is also non-conforming.It would not increase the footprint,or expand past the footprint of the lower
first floor existing addition.We are also looking to add a second story over our kitchen which would become the CHAIRMAN:So the 7"is now 1.5?
master bedroom,that would also not increase the footprint of the house. Finally we are looking to put a screen
porch in the back.Which would just be a screen porch,not enclosed.Also a mudroom that would be on the south MS.KRAMER:No the 7"is this,and there's another one that's I.S.
side of the house by the driveway.I think that's the one that would have the proper setbacks.
MEMBER ORLANDO:A new construction at ground level.
CHAIRMAN:I just have to tell you that this board has never granted a 9"variance.
MEMBER TORTORA:The porch that says 0.7 on the new site plan that you gave us.You want to put a 2"a story
MR.KLINGE:That exists,we're looking for a foot and a''/:.Or 1.5. addition over that.
MEMBER TORTORA:Your survey shows 7". MR.KLINGE:That right now is not a porch,that's an addition.It's livable space.A bathroom and a part of a
bedroom.
MR.KLINGE:That's existing.
MS.KRAMER:From the site plan,the proposed 2n'floor addition-
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MEMBER TORTORA:Right,that's a bath now? MEMBER OLIVIA:May I ask you,do you have any sleeping quarters above your barn in the back?
MR.KLINGE:That always was a bath. MR.KLINGE:No.My wife has her office there.
MEMBER TORTORA:Right in back of that you have a little tiny addition.Is that brand new construction? MEMBER OLIVIA:She has a home occupation.
MS.KRAMER:That's a new construction. MR.KLINGE: She works in the city,and I built an office so she could work out there,and telecommute.
MEMBER TORTORA:And that new construction would have a 1.5'setback,is that correct? MEMBER OLIVIA:I noticed too,your line really runs through part of it.
MS.KRAMER:That's correct. MR.KLINGE:My barn is really on my neighbors property,and my neighbors barn is on my property.
MEMBER TORTORA:And then the 2"floor addition at it's closest point is 4.81. MEMBER OLIVIA:The other garage on the south side is on your property.
MS.KRAMER:No,5.1. MR.KLINGE:Correct.
MEMBER TORTORA:At it's closest point?It's 4.8? MEMBER ORLANDO:There was a justification there somewhere right?
MS.KRAMER:No. It's 4.8 from-it's 5.1 from the property line,4.8 is just a projection of the CHAIRMAN:Massive encroachment.
MEMBER TORTORA: I took a good look at the neighborhood,and the houses are pretty close together there. I MR,KLINGE:I believe that's all grandfathered in and okayed and all that.
didn'tsee any houses that were 7"from the property line.It's very tight.The real question you have is it's a 50'
wide lot.Even with the extensions that you are proposing,a 16'extension on a 50'lot going back that leaves you, MEMBER OLIVIA: Do you have a CO for that barn?
even considering the driveway,you have room on the south side for an expansion without going into that area on the
north side. MR.KLINGE:There's a CO for the property.I don%know if there's a specific CO for the barn.
MS.KRAMER:Maybe I could show you the floor plan.In order to do that we would have to change the entire MEMBER OLIVIA: Because you made some additions to that to make an office up there.Are there bathroom
interior of the house. facilities up there?
CHAIRMAN: Suddenly it's important,that's what we don't have.Why doesn't everybody come over here,that MR.KLINGE:Yes,there's a toilet up there.
wants to see it,and well pass it down.
CHAIRMAN:Where do we go from here?We started with Mrs.Tortora,we can go to Mr.Orlando if he has any
MS.KRAMER:This is the existing wing,it's 9",and upstairs you are doing the bathroom.This is the new 1.5 questions.
story addition.
MEMBER ORLANDO:No further questions.
MEMBER OLIVIA:There's room over here,by the driveway,I agree with Mrs.Tortora.We drove around and
there just aren't any other houses that are that close,that it can't be swung slightly to the south? CHAIRMAN:Mr.Homing.
MS.KRAMER:Well I guess- MEMBER HORNING:I'd like to ask the applicant if theyd consider coming up with another plan if they oriented
the house more centrally located in that 50'plot of property offsetting,instead of encroaching further on the one
CHAIRMAN:Let me just start with the nursery.The purpose of the nursery is that location is what? right-of-way or property line and offsetting it,shifting the construction over towards,closer to their driveway as they
can.
MR.KLINGE: For our new baby.
MR.KLINGE:Which part are you specifically talking about?
CHAIRMAN: I understand what the purpose of it is,but why in that location?
MEMBER HORNING:The new construction.
MR.KLINGE:Because the bedroom's upstairs are pretty small.We looked around and tried to fit it in there.
There's just nowhere upstairs to put it,and it didn'treally work into the downstairs at all.I have two boys that have CHAIRMAN:Which would be the nursery,and any of the 2°a story stuff.In order to do that you'd have to build a
been in the same room since I've been in the house,and they re getting into their teens,they are territorial.We I'story to support a 2"a story.
wanted to give them each their separate room,as well as our bedroom upstairs,and then downstairs,there's just no-
it just really didn't work out.The layout of the house didn't work out as it exists.There is a bedroom in that spot MR.KLINGE:If we were to move it to the south side,that would be correct.
where the bathroom that's 9"away which was a bedroom,it just made the room between the kitchen and the living
room just a big hallway.You just walk back and forth,there's nowhere to put any furniture in it.It's not a usable MS.KRAMER:I'd like to point out the fact that there's some rationale for doing that,I'd like to show you some
room. elevations.I'm looking at the 2na page.This is where the 9"encroachment is.In order to make a 2"story addition,
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all we are doing is raising the roof to make across gable.It's a very easy way of getting a bathroom upstairs.And MEMBER OLIVIA:No,I think he has addressed absolutely everything.
the reason too,if you are looking at the rear of the house,this is the second story addition which is going to be
creating the master bathroom that's coming out the back,and again,it's just continuing the existing roof structure. CHAIRMAN:Are we leaving it at this point,or are we asking for any types of changes?
You're not having to create gables and crickets and all sorts of things.It's just a simple continuing of the gable out.
MEMBER HORNING: He's spending a lot of money,and its going to be there along time,if there's anyway to
MEMBER ORLANDO: So the master bedroom is on the 2nd floor. move the construction to the other side ofthe house. I'd like them to entertain those types of ideas.
MS.KRAMER:Correct. MR.KLINGE:What kind of setbacks would you approve?If you're saying to put the porch-
MEMBER ORLANDO:But the nursery is on the 1'floor. MEMBER HORNING:The minimum is-
MS.KRAMER: Correct,near the living space.Theyll use the monitor because the other 2 boys,I guess there MR.KLINGE:I know that,but if we were to go for a variance-
wasn't enough room on the ground floor to put 2 new bedrooms for the 2 boys,it was easier to put the nursery on the
1'floor. MEMBER HORNING:6'probably,something like that.We like to see as much as you can-
MEMBER ORLANDO: Logistically,therell be a lot of running around. MR.KLINGE:I understand that.
MR.KLINGE:The house really is not that big. II's 1,400 sq.ft.at it exists right now. MEMBER TORTORA:Right now,as it is,you've got a good 25'where you're proposing that screened in porch on
the south side.
MS.KRAMER:I just wanted to point that out,for ease of construction,we're just continuing out that gable.Right
now,the existing roof comes up to here,we're not even putting a full 2 story. MR.KLINGE:From the property line to the porch.
MEMBER HORNING:But when you put that porch on there,you're only 3 feet from that line again. MEMBER TORTORA:Yes.That's why it just doesn't make sense.
MEMBER ORLANDO:Couldn't you build to the back of the lot,and put the nursery on the 2"d floor and then the MR.KLINGE:You still have the driveway there,you're limited.
bathroom.
MEMBER TORTORA:It's 50'wide.Even if you figure 15'on the driveway,and you figure you're 10'off the
MS.KRAMER:We're only adding one bathroom,it's not even a master,just a hall bath for all bedrooms.This is property line.That leaves you enough to build exactly what you want to build.
the existing bathroom,so we're moving the bathroom to there and making this the walkway into the new master
bedroom. MR.KLINGE:Also without making it look too wacky.We're trying to stay within the lines of the house and make
is sort of look nice,and not have something jut this way and that way also.
CHAIRMAN:It wouldn't do you any good to go out back anyway because of the way the house is skewed toward
the property line.If the house was built totally perpendicular to- MEMBER OLIVIA:Just to interrupt,a lot of houses do come in a bit,and then go out this way. Instead of just
going this way.And that looks perfectly fine,when other people have cut it back this way and then gone straight. I
MEMBER TORTORA:The porch could. don't think it looks awkward,and you get a bit more of side yard there because even to get emergency equipment in
there you have to go all away around the back and go in your neighbors property,and god forbid,something would
MEMBER HORNING:The porch could go over.What we are doing is trying to gain some space between the-in happen,a fire or anything like that. I think you'd have trouble with fire insurance too.
the case of the property owner who's going to be looking at this massive 2-story structure that wasn'tthere before,
right up on the property line. CHAIRMAN:So basically we have two people that are asking for change of zoning on the board.Is there anybody
else who would like to add to that?
MR.KLINGE:We sent the letter,she sent back the receipt,she hasn'tsaid anything.
MEMBER TORTORA:I think I agree with George.I would like to see that.
MEMBER ORLANDO:To build that 2"d story addition which is 9"off the property line,technically,theoretically,
you'd be trespassing the building because you can't just fit in between there and there and build up,even though MEMBER HORNING:There's sufficient room to re-arrange things and have the applicant come up with a better
there is a fence there.When you put in that perspective you see how tight it is. plan.
MR.KLINGE:Absolutely.We have good neighbors,all the neighbors. CHAIRMAN:Well,Ms.Kramer,that's the magic 3 votes.I guess you should sit down,see if you can do
something else,and bring it into us,and we will entertain it,based upon the fact this couple has a need-there's no
MEMBER ORLANDO:I'rm just making a statement,noting how close it is. question about it.There's nothing wrong with the plan,and there's nothing wrong with your drawings.The only
problem we have is distance to the property line.
MR.KLINGE: We're just stuck with the building as it is,we're just trying to make it more livable for us.
MS.KRAMER:We went for the simplest solution,and it was economical.
CHAIRMAN: Mrs.Olivia,I sidestepped you,you had some discussions in the beginning,is there something else
you'd like to address? CHAIRMAN:How long is it going to take you to re-think,this is not a sarcastic statement.
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MS.KRAMER: I don't know,Itn in the middle of a few projects right now. MEMBER TORTORA:You could just revise it.That would be acceptable to me.
MEMBER TORTORA:Well leave it open,and when you decide let us know,we won't- CHAIRMAN:Vince?
MS.KRAMER: Well come up with an alternative plan,and an alternative site plan.I don't know-you meet every MEMBER ORLANDO:That would be acceptable to me.
2 weeks right?
CHAIRMAN:George?Okay,well throw it over to the special meeting,which we haven't scheduled yet,but well
CHAIRMAN: Every 2 weeks,there's a special,and then we go every month.Right now,there are hearings only say 7:15 pm next Thursday.November 21'. Can we get it from you next Wednesday?
once a month.
MEMBER TORTORA:The problem is,when you hand us stuff up on the dais,we don't have any opportunity to
MS.KRAMER: Do we have to wait,like get on the Est again. review it.The sooner you get us something in advance,the quicker it is for you.
CHAIRMAN:If we wait,you'll have to re-notice your neighbors.If we give you a specific date,you do not have to MEMBER ORLANDO:It's going to rain this weekend anyway,so you have nothing else to do.
re-notify your neighbors.
CHAIRMAN:III make a motion.
MS.KRAMER:Why don't we pick a specific date,then.
CHAIRMAN:A specific date is January 16'". 7:20 pm AppL No.5210-DAVID and LAUREL SMITH.This is a request for a Variance under Section 100-
30A.3,based on the Building Department's July 26,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for permission to construct
MIL KLINGE:Her due date is the 27'".We were looking to start back in September,so we would like to get it as additions/alterations to an existing dwelling in a nonconforming location at less than 50'from the front lot line.
soon as we could. Location of Property:1010 Bay Avenue,Mattituck;Parcel 143-3-17.
MEMBER HORNING: You might need and amended Notice of Disapproval. CHAIRMAN: Good evening,could you state your name for the record please?
CHAIRMAN:Just have Damon in the Building Department re- VICKI TOTH: Good evening,Chairman,myname is Vicki Toth. Itn hereon behalf of David and Laurel Smith.
They are applying for a variance for a front yard setback for their existing home. I have letters from the neighbors.
MEMBER TORTORA:Yes.They are really good about that. I have some house plans,and I also have a few photos of area homes.If I could present those to you.
CHAIRMAN:The only other thing is December 16'",or December 12'",rather.And we have a very crowded CHAIRMAN: Sure. What would you like to tell us?
calendar.If you choose the 12'",it will be the last hearing. So,bring coffee.I don't mean that sarcastically,it will
be a late night. MS.TOTH:The current home was constructed brand new in 1963 by Mrs.Smith's uncle,and has been in the
family ever since.As you can see from the photo,it's a one-story existing home.It's a small house.They are a
MR.KLINGE: Otherwise if you want to prepare for this special meeting that you have in 2 weeks. young family.They have 2 children.They would like to expand and have a 2"story.As you can see by the
elevation from the building plan,the construction that they are requesting would not have a negative impact on the
MEMBER TORTORA: We haven't even made that fur yet. neighborhood,in fact it would probably enhance the neighborhood.The majority of the homes in the area are very
close to the front.It would be nice if back in 1963 they would have thought to put the house back a little further
MR.KLINGE: Would that be possible in 2 weeks? because it's such a large lot,but nobody wanted to shovel that much snow.They are hoping that-the front porch is
actual area that would be the request for the variance.
CHAIRMAN:WeYe not having it in 2 weeks,it would be next week.
MEMBER TORTORA:Do you have a copy?
MR.KLINGE:Next week.
CHAIRMAN:Yes,I just sent it down.
CHAIRMAN:Two weeks is Thanksgiving.
MS.TOTH:I was able to obtain surveys from the surrounding homes on the same side of the street,just so you
MEMBER HORNING:Time is going to run out-youte going to have this baby before you have this project. could see the current setback.You can see that the house 2 doors down from the subjects,they have added a huge 2
story addition to the rear of their home.
MR.KLINGE:Okay,well,if you could shoot for next week.If we could come up with a rough sketch by then.
CHAIRMAN:That's Mr.Griffin's house.
MS.KRAMER:As long as we don't have to prepare all new elevations and plans and everything.Ifyou would just
accept a site plan from a sketch. MS.TOTH:Yes,that's correct.
MEMBER TORTORA:Like you did on the PC? CHAIRMAN:Ill start with Mrs.Olivia.
MS.KRAMER:Yes. MEMBER OLIVIA:Yes.Looking at your setback which is proposed 34'.And looking at the other homes in the
area,and looking at what you gave us,they are 40'and better back from the road.It is this board's opinion,I think,
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not to have all these homes set either closer to the road,because then somebody else is going to come in and theyre
going to get to be 34',and then somebody else is going to want to be 25'.And you certainly have plenty of room on 7:30 pm Appl.No.5207-GARY&JOANNA CAMPO.This a request for a Variance under Section 100-30A.4,
the rear of the property.You can build your 2-story house,and build any kind of a porch or deck on the rear of the based on the Building Department's July 23,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for permission to construct an accessory
house instead of on the front. garage in an area other than the required rear yard.Location of Property:650 Three Waters Lane,Orient;Parcel 15-
6-24.
MS.TOTH:As you can see from the photo,theywanted to be able to build cantilever in the front because they
would really like to have a front porch on their home,and it would be very hard to do the second story addition with CHAIRMAN: Good evening please state your name for the record.
a cantilever in the front without a porch.It just wouldn't look correct.
GARY CAMPO:Good evening,I'm Gary Campo,my wife Joanna.
MEMBER TORTORA: But you could do the 2''story addition without the cantilever.
CHAIRMAN: We had a variance with you before. This is a new house,right?And Lang Liso built this house.
MS.TOTH: Right.But looking at the existing structure that is there,it would not cosmetically be very appealing to And now you want to put a garage on the side yard.Only because you don't have a rear yard to build a garage.
the owners of the home to do just a flat straight front home.And you can see most of the houses in the area,they all
have front porches on them. MR.CAMPO:Cesspool and everything is in the way.
MEMBER TORTORA:Yes,they do.But let's the record really clear here.Your existing setback is 41.7%And by CHAIRMAN:I was out to see your property,and I understand your situation.Well go on to Mr.Homing.
your own calculations which are pretty much what I came up with when I looked there,all of the houses on the same
side of the street in the neighborhood,have the same setbacks-41,45,49.But what you're proposing to do,is MEMBER HORNING:Ill pass for a second.
you're proposing to come into a front yard at 34%which would be closer to the road then any of your other
neighbors.This is a heavily trafficked road.It's a road that has a sidewalk on it,and as Member Olivia said,these CHAIRMAN:Mr.Orlando?
are large lots.They are not small lots.You have plenty ofroom in the back to have additions,with no variances,
period,in the back.I have no objections,this is me,I'm not speaking for the board.I personally have no objections MEMBER ORLANDO:It's completely in the side yard.Could we come up with a compromise,and get some of it
to you going up a 2n'story to gain more room over the existing front back-foundation. But I don't see that it's in the backyard?I know you have the clothesline right behind it. _
justified to establish a new front yard at 34'on a heavily trafficked road when by your own calculations,everyone
else on the road is setback at least 41'.That's my opinion. MR.CAMPO:I could move the clothesline. '
MS.TOTH:You're right,the closest house there is 41.8.It would end up being just less than 5'.The owners of the MEMBER ORLANDO:You also have the shed.
home would really like,ultimately in the perfect world,if it was feasible,they would love to move the house further
back,pare down what's there and build a new one.But monetarily,that's just impossible for them,financially,that's MR.CAMPO:The sheds even with the cesspool.
just not feasible.They really like a front porch. We asked fora maximum of T,we could cut it back to 6,even 5%
if that would be acceptable to this board.I know myself,I have a front porch,and I like having a front porch on my MEMBER TORTORA:Right in front of it.
house. Cosmetically it looks nice,it will increase property values for everybody in the neighborhood including the
subject home,and you are correct,there is a sidewalk in that area,and there's also grass before you get to the street. MR.CAMPO:I could do whatever you want.
They are aware of the traffic on that road.There's not a problem with that.None of their neighbors have any
objection whatsoever. I have submitted to the board 6 letters from all the neighbors,they are all in favor of what MEMBER ORLANDO:If you could do 10,that would personally-
they are trying to do.They all agree it will enhance the area along with their property values also. It's just the only
way to do this to make it look correct when they put the 2'd story on instead ofjust ending up with a box. MR.CAMPO: So you want me to move it back 107
CHAIRMAN:Mr.Orlando. CHAIRMAN:It would be 62.5'then right? Want to make in an even 63?
MEMBER ORLANDO:Yes I do know all the neighbors do have porches,one is enclosed,but they all have MR.CAMPO:The front of the garage be 63'from the street.How do we do that,re-apply to the Building
porches.This is one of the closest house,I personally,in my opinion,I would like to see the 5'.I wouldn't have a Department for a building permit to see if it's approved?
problem with that if you could cut it back.
CHAIRMAN:We are still going down the line.
MS.TOTH: Okay.Thank you.
MEMBER ORLANDO:You wouldn't have to re-apply because it would still be in the side yard.It would just be
MEMBER HORNING:I have no questions. less in the side yard,so you wouldn't have to re-apply.We would just be tweaking it a little bit.
CHAIRMAN:I have no problems with the 5'either.Thank you,well see what happens throughout the hearing. CHAIRMAN:This is a 2-story garage.What's going on upstairs?
We hope to have a decision for you shortly.Is there anybody else who would like to speak for or against this
hearing?Seeing no hands,I make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MR.CAMPO:Nothing right now.But to be honest with you,in the future,I might have to have someone come in
to help me with my son.He's getting older,and he's confined to a wheelchair,and he's going to stay with us,and
PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION he's getting heavier.
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
CHAIRMAN:We don't actually allow any habitability in an accessory structure. We just want you to be aware of MEMBER OLIVIA:Theyll give you some ideas.
that-any decision from this board would restrict this to be only for storage purposes.
MR.CAMPO:So,well re-schedule for the next meeting?
MR.CAMPO: Okay.That's what well do then.
CHAIRMAN:You're not really re-scheduled,we're going to close the hearing next Thursday.Just let us know by
CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Tonora? letter,by next Wednesday,if youte going with Mr.Orlando's suggestion at 63'-that's fine with us. WeYe just
telling you about planning,that's it.
MEMBER TORTORA:I just kind of wondered why,you know looking at the property,you didn't think about
bringing the garage closer to the house,because it's a pretty tall structure. MR.CAMPO:We appreciate it.Thank you.
MR.CAMPO:We wanted to have the area in between the house and the garage for him to be able to play in,so we CHAIRMAN:Any questions?Anybody else like to speak for or against this application?Seeing no hands,Ill
could observe him from the house,or from the garage. make a motion recessing it to next,Fm sorry,closing the hearing for verbatim testimony,and closing as a matter of
right,next Thursday.
MEMBER TORTORA: I saw that,and I saw the ramps,and I thought,well why don't they-
MEMBER TORTORA:We could leave the whole thing open in case the}
MR.CAMPO:If we brought the garage closer,there's not going to be any room for him to play.
CHAIRMAN:Okay,well leave it open for next Thursday.
MEMBER TORTORA: If you had an attached garage,you may really want to think about this,you know if you
want to think in the future about room for him,and you incorporated the house and the garage somehow,it would all MEMBER TORTORA:Well recess it until November 21'at 7 pm.
be okay because it would all be part of the principal building.It's really something to think about.In other words,if
the house were attached to the garage,and it becomes part of the principal building,you could create room for your MEMBER ORLANDO:Wete going to leave the hearing open in case you want to change your mind.
son,and you wouldn't have to have-I mean it would be permitted.Itn just,you may want to go back to the
Building Department to talk about your long-range plans,because we could consider this variance,but it's not going CHAIRMAN:Well make it 7:20.
to help out what you're talking about.And if you're going to build there,youre stuck.It's a thought. If you want us
to hold off on making a decision on this,we will.If you really,because there's noway we could grant you MR.CAMPO:Thank you.
permission to-
CHAIRMAN:Between now and next Wednesday,think about it,and if there's any change in your mind,well 7:37 pm Appl.No.5198-SUSAN LAGUARDIA.This is a request for a Variance under Section 100-31A,based
discuss it next Thursday. on the Building Department's May 14,2002 Notice of Disapproval,denying"as built"alterations to an existing two-
story accessory building,for the reason that such alterations are not permitted as designed for a second dwelling use
MEMBER TORTORA: Why don't we just leave this hearing open,and if you have some second thoughts about it, on the property.Location of Property:2950 Camp Mineola Road,Mattituck;123-5-5.
as I say,you may want to talk to the Building Department.Say,look in the long run this is what we'd like to do.
How can we do this? CHAIRMAN:I'm going to suggest we postpone this to February20,2003.
MR.CAMPO:There's a neighbor of ours who has a garage who rents it out upstairs. MEMBER TORTORA:Re-scheduled to February 20,2003.
MEMBER TORTORA:You don't tell us that.
7:38 pm AppL No.5203-RONALD and DIANE EKSTER.This is a request for a Variance under Sections 100-
MEMBER ORLANDO:And that address was? 242A and 100-244B,based on the Building Department's March 1,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for permission to
locate a deck addition at less than 35'from the front property line.Location of Property:1700 Main Street,New
MEMBER TORTORA: I would think they would take sometime with this.I'm only suggesting that because- Suffolk;Parcel 117-9-23
CHAIRMAN:Even more importantly to lock you in.If you want to move the garage a little closer to the house. CHAIRMAN:Good evening,could you state your names for the record?
MR.CAMPO:How close? DIANE EKSTER:Diane Ekster,and this is my husband,Ron.
MEMBER OLIVIA: How much space do you have? CHAIRMAN:You have a very nice house in New Suffolk.And you want to put a front porch on.
CHAIRMAN:It's not shown on the- RON EKSTER:A little bit bigger one.
MEMBER TORTORA: Here's your garage over here,but say you did this,or you did this as Gerry said,and moved CHAIRMAN:And that is going to go to-how close to the property line,24?
them closer together,later on it would still be part of your,you wouldn't need any variances.
MEMBER TORTORA:I think its 24.
MRS.CAMPO:Well go down and talk to the Building Department.
CHAIRMAN:And the purpose ofthe front porch is?
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MEMBER ORLANDO:The new addition,well actually,you're going to remove the old one,and start over,is
MRS.EKSTER:To have it a little bit bigger so we can put some chairs out there. going to be 8x12.So then the math does work.
MR.EKSTER:I have one chair,and you can't open the door. CHAIRMAN: Mr.Homing?
CHAIRMAN: Ion just looking for the survey.As you know New Suffolk is a relatively small lot-ed area,and we MEMBER HORNING:I have no questions.
do have a lot of houses,and in the front-in your case you have two front yards,but they have relatively small
setbacks to the property line,in lieu of that situation,I don't have a particular problem.Well start with Mrs.Olivia. CHAIRMAN: We thank you,please don't leave until we close this hearing.We are going to find out if anyone else
wants to speak.We hope to have a decision for you by next week,and we thank you for coming in.
MEMBER OLIVIA:Anyway you can take offa little bit less,because again,you're going to be forward from some
of the other properties in the neighborhood. MR.EKSTER:Thank you.
MRS.EKSTER:There's pictures in there that maybe you should have,that show you,wete the furthest in. CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone who wants to speak for or against the application?Seeing no hands III make a
motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later.
CHAIRMAN:Do you have any idea how close that house across the street on the comer is?
PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR APPLICATION
MRS EKSTER:Directly across? ***
CHAIRMAN:Yes.The little one. Is there a little one across from you?
7:45 pm Appl.No.5206-PATRICIA GARABRANT.Proposed Accessory Bed and Breakfast use incidental to
MRS.EKSTER:There's a ranch across up on a hill on cement,and there's one to the right of us,and then we have, the applicant-owner's residence in the existing dwelling,located at 9625 Main Road,East Marion;Parcel 31-3-21.
Benny next door on this side- - Applicant proposes lodging for up to four(4)guests and a maximum of two(2)guest B&B rooms,with serving of
breakfast to the applicant's guests under the Bed&Breakfast.
MEMBER TORTORA: Can I say something?I had the lovely occasion to meet this gentleman and his dog.Ion
just lucky you were home otherwise this is an inspection I would have readily passed up.This is what I observed, LYNN ATKINSON LOVELESS,ESQ:I'm Lynn Atkinson Loveless,representing Patricia Garabrant,property
the porch is rotting.The setback on the west side of the house for the principle structure,not a porch,not an owner.
addition,more than half of that building is close to the road than this applicant.Opposite the 2id street,the house on
the east side,not a porch addition,but the principle structure is also forward of it.So- CHAIRMAN:This is a B&B,2 bedrooms,is that correct?
CHAIRMAN:Do you know how far forward? MS.LOVELESS:Yes.
MEMBER TORTORA:At least 10'.If not more,and that's-you know-I could go back and measure and give you CHAIRMAN:What would you like to tell us?Why would you like a B&B?
exact. But that's what I looked at.I looked at the existing setback of the other neighbors,and concluded pretty
readily that even with the addition that he's proposing,that the addition is still going to be further back than his PAT GARABRANT: I have a beautiful house and want to show it off.
immediate neighbors to the east and west.That's just my observations.
CHAIRMAN:That's a good reason.We noticed in your surveyyou have written in the parking area to the rear of
CHAIRMAN:That's what I concur with,I agree with you.Mr.Orlando. the house.It's very important on main state highway,no question about it.These 2 bedrooms are upstairs.
MEMBER ORLANDO:I'm just trying to clear up the Notice of Disapproval.I believe it's an error because it states MS.LOVELESS:Yes they are.
that your setback now is 32'and your new setback will be 24'.That states that you're making it 8'larger than it is
now,and the pictures don't show that.Youtre going to add on 4',but they are saying you are 32'from your porch CHAIRMAN:By the nature of this application,which is a special permit,in your own mind,do you see anything
now to the street and you're reducing it down to 24'.According to this you're making the porch 16'from width, that would affect either the neighbors or cause a blight to the community,would disrupt any functions of anybody in
according to this.That's why Ion saying the disapproval is wrong. the immediate area with us granting you a B&B.I just have to ask you these questions.
MR.EKSTER:No.What we are doing is- MS.GARABRANT:I don't see any problems with it because I have a pretty busy area there,and Ion a pretty quiet
person,I don't see any problems.
MEMBER ORLANDO:Youlre tacking on 4'from the existing porch,approximately.
CHAIRMAN: Mr.Homing,any questions for this lady?
MEMBER TORTORA:The Building Department is measuring from the principal structure because their existing
porch is 28',and that's not calculated. MEMBER HORNING:No.
MEMBER ORLANDO:The original is exempt from that.The Building Department's measuring 32'from the CHAIRMAN:Mr.Orlando.
principle structure-so 8 from 32.
MEMBER ORLANDO:Have you ever run a B&B before,or anything similar to this?
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
MS.GARABRANT:No,but I raised 4 children and entertained quite a bit,and I'm a very good cook.
MEMBER TORTORA:Could you draw it?
MEMBER ORLANDO:So you don't have a problem with strangers walking in or anything?
MEMBER ORLANDO:Because I had to back out as well when I went.
MS.GARABRANT:No I don't.
MS.GARABRANT:People think that's part of the yard because I dont have any ties anymore.They all rotted.Ion
MEMBER ORLANDO:You have 2 front doors. putting ties and crushed stone so you would be able to pull forward,then you could just back out and be right down
the driveway,facing forward on main road.
MS.GARABRANT: I have 2 side entrances.
MEMBER TORTORA:That's very important,and let me tell you right now,it would also be a condition of our
MEMBER ORLANDO:Which would be the main entrance for the guests? approval.Next question I have,I did not go in the house,I just was curious as to,because I know the Building
Inspectors will check you for the windows and the egress and the smoke detectors,and everything else.You get one
MS.GARABRANT: The main entrance would probably be the front entrance. stairway leading up,is it a narrow stairway?
MEMBER ORLANDO: Closest to the road. MS.GARABRANT: I don't know what you mean by a narrow staircase. Can two people go up it abreast?
MS.GARABRANT:It doesn't matter,they can come in either,but III use the front entrance because that's the main MEMBER TORTORA:I mean is it 28"wide?
entrance to the parlor.
MS.GARA13RANT:I don't know.28-30.
MEMBER ORLANDO:Doesn't the walkway-
MEMBER TORTORA:Is it? Okay.It will be up to the Building Inspectors,and what we usually do is we approve
MS.GARA13RANT:I have a walkway. it subject to them reviewing all the interior things.The parking was the big thing.It's a lovelyplace.
MEMBER ORLANDO:Doesn'tthat lead to the other door? MS.GARABRANT:It's going to be nicer.
MS.GARABRANT: It leads to both doors.It also leads from the driveway.And in the back,I don't know if you CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Olivia?
were at the house,but in the back,the back door is right by there.It is fenced in with a little patio.
MEMBER OLIVIA:It is a lovely house.I live in Orient.And I did want just to know,what are your ceiling
MEMBER ORLANDO:You dont have a designated entrance. heights upstairs,are they the regulation size?
MS.GARABRANT:No,they can use any entrance they like. MS.GARABRANT:9. One of the side-the side facing the house,on the other side,the ceilings are slanted in
areas.
MEMBER ORLANDO:No other questions.
MEMBER OLIVIA:But you can stand?
CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Tortora?
MS.GARABRANT:Oh,yes you could stand.One is 9 and one is 8.
MEMBER TORTORA: I did go to the house,I didn't have the pleasure of coming in the house.It is a beautiful old
house. I've got a couple of questions. It's a main road,and I see you have a drawing for parking for 4 cars.The 4 MEMBER OLIVIA:You71 have no objections if we require rope ladders or steel ladders to get out of the 2"a floor
cars,you know,that you have parking for,the most important thing here is that they are not backing out into the windows.And I'm sure they'll check it to make sure the windows are wide enough for someone to get out.
main road. I really would like you to think about and submit to us,it's no big deal.Submit a plan to show that those
cars can come in and out,so they are not backing out to the main road.I went in,and quite frankly,there's no area MS.LOVELESS:So,in other words,the one other thing you want before you could render a decision would be a
indicated now,that I could get out of there without either going over your lawn,running into a tree.The one thing parking plan?
I'm concerned with is cars backing out,and there appeared to be one tree that-
MEMBER TORTORA:A parking plan so we could include that in the record,showing that there are not going to
MS.GARABRANT:By the way it's set up now,it would be confusing.But what I plan on doing is,where that tree be any cars backing out on that road.
is to the back of the house,there's plenty of room there for more than 4 cars.
MS.LOVELESS:A sketch with measurements,foot measurements.
MEMBER TORTORA:There's room but-
MEMBER TORTORA:You don't have to be architects to do this,just figure it out,size.We like that the cars come
MS.GARABRANT:You're looking at the yard,but it's going to be cut off further. So that you can fit in between around as opposed to backing up.
the tree and the fence.
MS.GARABRANT:We do have the room there.
MEMBER OLIVIA:You can make an"L"shape.
MS.LOVELESS:Then a decision would come a week or so after that?
MS.GARABRANT:You could back out and be facing forward.
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MEMBER TORTORA:You will give us that information by next Wednesday,okay.? MEMBER HORNING: Did you consider a plan that you wouldn't need a variance?
MS.LOVELESS:Just turning it into the office here? MR.PIROZZI:If I made the room any narrower,I'd end up with a room only about 10'wide.It really would not
work.I think if you look at the design,I'm trying to make the house'L"shaped so it has some appeal to it rather
MEMBER TORTORA:That's fine. than destroy the whole house.
CHAIRMAN:Please don t leave until this hearing is over. Is there anybody else who'd like to speak. Would you MEMBER ORLANDO:I personally don't have a problem with it.You're looking for a T variance.
state your name for the record please?
MR.PIROZZI:There are houses in the neighborhood that are even closer to-
LOIS AGABROAD: My name is Lois Agabroad. I have a house directly across the street. Pat does have a
beautiful house,beautifully maintained.My only questions,you already addressed the parking issue,because I was MEMBER ORLANDO:You're on a comer lot kind of,you know,you have 2 front yards,angled off to the sides. I
hoping there wouldn't be parking on the main road.The other issue is signage-is there going to be a sign,what's think you're fine.You have to find a new place for your boat then.
the lighting on the sign?
MR.PIROZZI:You noticed that.It's only there because the driveway's new. I'rn waiting for it to settle,then Ion
CHAIRMAN: We really don't deal with signs on any residential property,okay.?I believe the sign cannot exceed 2 going to put it back on the driveway.
sq.ft.on a B&B.It almost and should conform very similar to a name sign.
MEMBER ORLANDO:No other questions.
MEMBER TORTORA: It cannot be internally lit.That's all in code.
MEMBER TORTORA:You have kind of a pie-shaped lot with 2 front yards.
MS.AGABROAD:There's several B&Bs there now,and they've all had pretty subdued lighting,and I didn't know
if there was any regulation on that. MR.PIROZZI: It's kind of like a football. It's an odd shaped lot.
MEMBER TORTORA:Yes there is. CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Olivia?
MS.AGABROAD:Thank you. _ MEMBER OLIVIA:I don't have any questions because all of the lots in that area are skewered one way or another.
CHAIRMAN:Is there anyone else who would like to speak?Seeing no hands I91 make a motion closing this CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone who would like to speak for or against this application.Seeing no hands,I'll make a
hearing reserving decision until later. motion closing the hearing,reserving decision until later.
PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION
7:55 pm Appl.No.5205-FRANK AND CAMILLE PIROZZI.This is a request for a Variance under Sections 100- 7:57 prn Appl.No.5196-MARC RUBENSTEIN AND PATRICIA PIERCE.This is a request for Variances
244B,based on the Building Department's July 23,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for proposed additionstalterations to under Sections 100-243A,100-242A,and 100-244,based on the Building Department's July 5,2002 Notice of
existing dwelling which will be less than 35'from the front lot line.Location of Property:1090 Bayview Drive, Disapproval,for permission to construct additions and alterations to an existing dwelling and two accessory
East Marion;Parcel 37-5-9. nonconforming guest cottages which increases the degree ofnonconformance,and which is proposed at less than 55'
from the front lot line. Location of Property:Madeline Avenue,Fishers Island;Parcel 6-7-7.
CHAIRMAN:What would you like to tell us?
CHAIRMAN: I need you to state your name for the record.
FRANK PIROZZI:Ion adding a playroom and game room. I have my grandchildren most of the summer,and I
want to create a room for them in bad weather. BARBARA HAM,ESQ:I have some memos.My name is Barbara Ham of Mattews and Ham,45 Hampton Road
in Southampton,NY.With me is Patricia Pierce.Dr.Pierce and her husband,Marc Rubenstein have applied for a
CHAIRMAN: It's going to put you approximately 35'from the front property line on Bayview Drive. building permit,and two areas came up that they need a variance on. One is the extension of a deck,which faces
Madeline Avenue and is only 17'from the front of the road.The other is to put an addition on an existing guest
MR.PIROZZI:Yes,that's right, cottage.I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the plans before this,but-
CHAIRMAN:You actually have 2 rather good sized lots. I mean the house sits on 2 good size lots in reference to CHAIRMAN:We did look at the plans,but we don't have any visual idea ofwhat these buildings look like.
many of the properties in this subdivision which are on smaller parcels.It's lot 18&19 in the original subdivision.
MS.HAM:In your packet,I believe there's some drawing of what they will look like.
MR.PIROZZI:I think you notice though,there's no room on either side to put an addition on.And no room in the
back as well.The only room to put anything is in the front. MEMBER ORLANDO:The porch facing Madeline,that one porch is pre-existing.
CHAIRMAN:Mr.Homing,any questions for this gentlemen? MS.HAM:Yes the one porch is pre-existing.The part that was declined by the Building Department is an
extension of T onto that porch.In other words it would still be the same 17'as exists.May I bring this up to you?
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
MEMBER TORTORA:For guests?
CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MRS.PIERCE:It's usually our kids.
MS.HAM:These lines are the existing structures.The proposal is to add Tonto the porch area.That would be the
deck.I have,in your packets,I think there's 3,4 or 5 houses on Madeline Avenue,I think 300'that are built just as MEMBER TORTORA:That's what I wanted to know.
close.This would bean extension of 70'here.The owners propose to incorporate this existing guest cottage into
the main house.That's one less structure that would be there.The second part that was declined by the Building CHAIRMAN:Assuming the board grants this application,when we do come over in August,we do like to look at
Department is this proposed addition to the existing guest cottage.The proposed addition was 58'for a bathroom, some of these so we might-when you know everyone is coming over,we might just casually stop in just to take a
which I m going to draw this here.The bulk of it is storage space.It does not have an entrance to the living space, look at it.
This would be storage,and a porch would be covered.This studio would stay,and about 1998 this studio was
reduced in size by 2/3'a's voluntarily by the owners of the property. MEMBER TORTORA:Are you suggesting we'd be overflow?
MEMBER TORTORA:What type of studio? CHAIRMAN:We'd be new-flow.Just so youre aware of that because it gets us the idea of what we granted and so
on and so forth.
MRS.PIERCE:Not for us,but it was a painter's studio.My husband uses it to practice guitar_
MEMBER ORLANDO:Nothing special,just finger sandwiches.
MEMBER TORTORA: It's not the area that's been disapproved.It's the use.
CHAIRMAN:Thank you for that presentation.It makes it much easier. Any questions from anybody regarding
MS.HAM:That's right.But it's a pre-existing conforming use. that?Ladies and gentlemen.Anybody in the audience like to speak for or against this application.This is a Fisher's
Island application.
MEMBER TORTORA: So it's an expansion of a pre-existing conforming use.
MS.HAM:May I add something?
CHAIRMAN:You're not expanding,you're just adding to it.
CHAIRMAN:Sure.
MS.HAM: It is an expansion of 58. -
MS.HAM:The lot coverage would be well under the 20%allowed.It would still be about 6%of the lot coverage
CHAIRMAN:You're not adding anything to the studio. with all the proposed additions.
MS.HAM: In fact the studio was diminished.The studio was 3 times.They are incorporating 4 structures into 2. CHAIRMAN:Wonderful. Hearing no further comment,III close the hearing reserving decision.
CHAIRMAN:Could that be enlarged?This is the extension that youre looking at.This is the open portion of it PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION
that you're referring to. ***
MEMBER TORTORA: What do you have in the guest cottage right now?Do you have a kitchen,bathroom?
8:06 pm Appl.No.5197-ALEXANDER D.WALKER,HI.This is a request for a Variance under Section 100-
MRS.PIERCE: I have a bathroom,full bath with a shower. 244,based on the Building Department's July 8,2002 Notice of Disapproval,for proposed additions/alterations to an
existing dwelling at less that 55'from the rear lot line.Location of Property:Mansion Drive,Fishers Island;Parcel
MEMBER TORTORA: What do you use it for? 1000-6-6-16&17(combined as one lot).
MRS.PIERCE:The cottage is not winterized. BARBARA HAM,ESQ:This is another Fishers Island property.The Walkers are proposing an addition over the
footprint over an existing deck.They bought the house with a rear yard setback issue.They would like to close it
MEMBER TORTORA: Could you go back there and put that into the record,and let me just get that into the record off in order to use it as living space.
one more time.
CHAIRMAN:Is this encompassing both lots that are shown on the tax map?
MS.HAM:The existing guest cottage which would be connected to the studio by the porch is not winterized.The
owners and applicants agree to maintain it as not winterized. MS.HAM:I'd have to check it.
MEMBER TORTORA: Is there a kitchen in the guest cottage? CHAIRMAN:It says lot 16&17.
MS.PIERCE:No there is not a kitchen in the guest cottage. MS.HAM:Yes,that's correct.
MEMBER TORTORA: What is the purpose of the cottage,what is it used for? CHAIRMAN:But it appears it's used really as one lot,is that correct?
MRS.PIERCE: It's for overflow housing in the summer. MS.HAM:Yes.The lot size is.88 acres,and that's the 2 of them.This would be the addition.They would like to
use it as a study.
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
CHAIRMAN: Question,Mrs.Moore.This is the main entrance.There will be no gate over on the south easterly
MEMBER OLIVIA:That was part of the deck? side?
MS.HAM:They have a deck there that came with the house when they bought it years ago.They are also putting a MRS.MOORE:Two gates of the same style,size.There are 2 equal entrances.The house,the way it is positioned
2n'story on on the property runs along Kimberly Lane,and the entranceway,it has 2 equal entrances.
CHAIRMAN:Just say it again quickly. CHAIRMAN: So we've lessened the height of the pillars,lessened the height of the antlers-
MS.HAM:The applicants are also planning a 2ie floor,but that isn't part of the variance.The existing deck floor MRS.MOORE:The base on the-
would be used as the foundation to an addition which would be a study.
CHAIRMAN:The base is the same,it's still 3'.
CHAIRMAN:That's what throws it off on the rear yard.
MRS.MOORE:The stanchions it sits on has been reduced,brought down.Therefore the statuary on the top
MS.HAM:That's correct. therefore equally comes down and then the gate.The gate is for the most part remains the same.
CHAIRMAN:Again,because of the way the house is skewed,okay.Any questions of Mrs.Ham regarding this? CHAIRMAN:Any of the neighbors seen this at all,do you know?Any of the neighbors here today.Mrs.Olivia,
any questions?
MEMBER ORLANDO: One quick question,I can't really find the garage in my drawing.How do they access-
MEMBER OLIVIA:Ion still studying.
CHAIRMAN:That's a good question.It's not really shown in this floor plan.
MRS.MOORE:The larger-it's very small detail,the larger rendering if you would like-you'll also be situated on
MEMBER HORNING:I walked all around the house,I didn'tsee the garage. the property.
MS.HAM:I don't believe there is a garage either.All I have here is a small shed.I don't think there's a garage. MEMBER TORTORA:Let me see if I understand this,I see the different designs to lower the antlers,etc.and
instead of continuing the wall past what we see on this drawing,we are going to put in a hedge-
MEMBER HORNING:The houses of the neighbors are at least 100'away from,there's nobody in the rear.
MRS.MOORE:No wall.
CHAIRMAN: Seeing no hands,III make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later.
MEMBER TORTORA:So this eliminates all of the wall of it,the only thing you are requesting a variance on,I just
PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION want to get this real clear is what is in this picture.
MRS.MOORE:Yes.On both sides of this picture.That's it.Is there something that-
8:10 pm Appl.No.5150-T.&A.LAOUDIS.(Continued hearing,carryover from October 17,2002).Height MEMBER TORTORA:Because the last time we talked about the height-
variances are requested for proposed stone wall and gate structure,all exceeding the code's height limitation of four
feet in or along a front yard,at 635 Kimberly Lane,Southold;70-13-20.4. MRS.MOORE:The length-now we've eliminated all those issues.
CHAIRMAN: Mrs.Moore,how are you tonight? MEMBER TORTORA: I just want to make it very clear that the only thing that's before us is now the two sets of
antlers and the height on that.
MRS.PATRICIA MOORE,ESQ: Fine,thank you.I have a large rendering for the board.I have a smaller
rendering for each ofyou.Mr.Laoudis has gone back to the drawing board and tried to minimize his request to MRS.MOORE:And the wall that surrounds it.
really the bare bones of what he wants,and wants to achieve hereon this property. If you recall,this is the large
matter house.He had a gated entrance on this property that was a 10'gated entrance.It was removed while the CHAIRMAN:Mr.Orlando.
construction was taking place.He wants to-it cant be put back.It's been damaged in the removal,and he wants to
replace it with this entrance gate which has the pillars with the wrought iron gate,and you can see from the design, MEMBER ORLANDO:Just for the record,what was the original height?
the larger rendering,that's it's intended to be architecturally compliant with the rest of the house.This is the large
manor house,it's been the original house of this entire development and it is a very imposing structure and the gate MEMBER TORTORA:According to the Notice of Disapproval,it is 11.78.
and the entranceway similarly they want to make it important as you come in to the house.He's tried to address
some of the neighbors concerns,he's tried to address some of the board's concerns.He's really toned it down to the CHAIRMAN:That was without the deer. I think it was either a mean level or whatever,but it didn't include the
extent he felt that he could.He's going to-instead of the wall-the stone wall which would have been very lovely- antlers
he's going to put in a privacy hedge.The complaints of the neighbors as far as the golfers and such will hopefully
end very quickly when all of the construction ends,and the privacy hedge comes up.It will be very difficult to see MEMBER ORLANDO:I thought it was up around 17 with the deer.It was very much reduced down.Did the deer
anything that's going on except from the water obviously. in proportion shrink?
MRS.MOORE:No the statuary,the placements were brought down?
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Novetnuer 14,2002-Regular Meeting November 14;2002-Regular Meeting
Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
all buildings in excess of the code limitation of20%.Location of Property:425 Miriam Road,Mattituck;Parcel
MEMBER ORLANDO: With a reduction of at least 7'.No other questions. 1000-99-1-31.
CHAIRMAN: Mr.Homing? PATRICIA MOORE,ESQ:Patricia Moore,representing the applicant. Since I didn't have the benefit of the
original application,what I did is I prepared my own points with respect to the standards of the area variance,and
MEMBER HORNING:Mrs.Moore,are both of these gates going to be identical? Ill just work off of that.Yesterday in the rain because you always have to take pictures in the rain,I took pictures of
the property so everyone could see what I was talking about.Some ofyou are more familiar with this property than
MRS.MOORE:Yes. others. What I've done is I've identified,I only have 3 sets I apologize,my printer was going to blow up if I tried to
get anymore out of it. III ask you to please share.
MEMBER HORNING:What is the maximum height of the tallest?
MEMBER ORLANDO:YouYe special Gerry.
MRS.MOORE:To the top of the antlers shows 10'
CHAIRMAN:No it doesn4-it stays in the file.
MEMBER HORNING:Rather than 17.
MRS.MOORE: Ion going to point out the very important features here.I want to begin with Mr.Tomatsu-there is
MRS.MOORE: Correct. a language barrier and if all due respect he has his assistant who will translate,and if you don4 mind shell be very
quiet to help him understand what we are talking about or if I say something that is in error.I want to make sure
MEMBER HORNING:The column itself is at 7. that he understands. If you hear,we are not trying to be rude,this is Mr.Tomatsu and his assistant Helen. I also
have here this evening,Joe Fishetti,who is our engineer and who's looked at this property and is prepared to testify
MRS.MOORS:The top of the column,and then it sits on abase which they don4 tell me.They just tell the total ifyou have questions with respect to this property.The picture shows more than anything else on this property.I've
10.So the base being 7-3'. identified the photographs. I did them in a kind of series.The first sheet shows the neighboring house,and you can
see the neighboring house has about 55'in height up there.It stands about 3'/:stories if you were to look at.You
MEMBER HORNING:And the length of the walls on either side of the- know most houses 35'2 stories is the standard,this one if you look at the-it's about 3 Y/stories,I include the garage
and you look at the whatever the P little piece is up there.It also stands in a sense,it artificially created a hill-it
MRS.MOORE:There has to be a measurement here,but I don't see it. took the highest elevation and then built a wall around it. I was so upset when I saw this be Mr.Tomatsu,he would
not say this because he wants to be very neighborly,he wants to-he-when they were building,he owned the
CHAIRMAN: It says VIS.You might want to ask them what that means. property at the time,and he gave permission to the owner to use his property as a staging area knowing he was going
to be doing some renovations so that activity on his property certainly wouldn't offend him.When he came back
MRS.MOORE: I will,I don4 know what that means. after all was said and done,he saw this immense bunker that was constructed,and quite to his surprise because that's
not what was described to him and to anybody with any subjective viewing of this property,would just be incensed
MEMBER HORNING:And the height of the sections of the wall? to have just bought a house and suddenly you end up with,I call it a bunker,a cement wall that becomes your side
yard.That becomes something that he now unfortunately has to deal with,and the area variances that he asked for
MRS.MOORE: 5'6".There are the 2 stanchions that are Tx4'in diameter,then there's the wall that runs between it. at least seem minimal,and in many respects trying to deal with this wall,and how to shield the view of this wall and
It might vary depending on the grade and elevation. Maybe it's not exact.Then there's the second column that is the preserve his property values.In this area,walls are needed,and retaining walls are required but certainly this one
finishing column and that is 616". has no sensitivity to the neighbor and to my client.The second set ofphotographs,the house when he purchased it
in lets see 3 years ago,the rule at the Building Department was that you could expand your house within the
MEMBER HORNING:In essence everything we ve discussed is subject to the variance because it's higher than footprint,as long as you don4 exceed the existing setbacks.The house is a modest house-it needs a lot of work,but
what code. the people who owned it before did not put a lot of money into it,it was a summer home.He bought it expecting to
renovate,at the time his architect looked into the code,and it was reasonable to expect that he would be able to
MRS.MOORE:Right,front yard W. renovate within the footprint,and they purposely designed the extension to go forward and back on the property line
where it would conform.He took that into consideration and then that was the plan that was submitted to this board.
CHAIRMAN: Mrs.Olivia,anything else? Ultimately with the board's interpretation of the ordinance,any expansion up or down or wherever requires this
board's review.The third set of photographs that you can see this is the equivalent of a waterfront house,but not a
MEMBER OLIVIA:No,I don4 think so. waterfront house.It is-you asked for a letter of non jurisdiction we're in the process-Rob Herman is getting that
but I can tell you as an attorney practicing in Southold-jurisdiction of the DEC is 300'or any man-made break,
CHAIRMAN:Any comment on this hearing before we close it.Seeing no hands,I make a motion to close the whether it's a street or anything above the 10'contour is clearly out of the DEC jurisdiction.Town Trustees equally,
hearing,reserving decision until later. they are about-I don4 know,600'away from LI Sound and up on a bill.There are no jurisdictional issues with
DEC or Trustees,but at your request and reading the transcript you ask for these things and he is abiding by your
PLEASE SEE MINUTES FOR RESOLUTION request.We expect the Trustees,they went out and inspected yesterday so I didn4 hear ifthey issued a
*** determination,but I would be quite surprised if theyjurisdiction here.I don4 know how.The other picture on page
3 is the neighboring house and you can see the properties are all 50'in width.They are all equally type-this is an
area that is common to this board in asking for variances.Attached is a memorandum and a photocopy of the tax
8:20 pm AppL No.5160-NHRIAM REALTY. (Continued hearing,carryover from September 29,2002). map,and I highlighted all of the parcels in the area that have obtained variances,and most of them are reduced side
Proposed are(1)additions and alterations to an existing dwelling with setbacks at less than 10'on one side and less yard,reduced front yard,most are area variances.Again this is very common for Capt.Kidd Estates.You are
than 25'total side setbacks,(2)and accessory building at less than 3'from the property line,(3)total lot coverage for familiar with this area.Again the photograph on 3 show the neighboring house,a couple of things,the neighboring
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
house is a square-ish house-2 story house,it has a full 2'd story.They also have a great deal of vegetation,most of MRS.MOORE:The lot coverage-let's bring this back to focus here-
the shrubbery actually is theirs its fully grown,mature,so they don't see each other.There's-this expansion should
not impact the neighbor since it's screened and will be maintained with the screen,because I suspect that the MEMBER HORNING:There's quite a discrepancy in the lot coverage as judged by yourselves and the Building
neighbors going to tear down his trees to be able to see my clients house. Department.
CHAIRMAN: Going back on one of your statements Mrs.Moore. I consider this to be a bluff. I don't care if it's a MRS.MOORE:No. What happened is that the original lot coverage they were looking at the brickwork and
bluff on the LI Sound or if it's a secondary bluff,but in your weekly,it is a bluff.It is a sand bluff.To further everything around the pool,all the patio that ifit's designed as a raised patio,obviously it gets all included as lot
exacerbate that situation is what we now have houses down below,and those particular houses,they are the brunt of coverage.What they did is they took that out and said no,well keep everything on grade,whether it's grass or brick
this sand hill.That's one of the major problems.Ecologically if we had no houses down below,we'd say yes sand or cement. If it's on grade,it doesn't cover,it's not lot coverage.Clearly what is lot coverage is the house,the
moves,and there is going to be a degree of erosion,a degree of scouring with wind damage and so on and so forth, extension,the garage,and the pool.What we did is we took the architect and I confirmed with him today because
and I know for a fact that you've represented people in this area before,but the main thrust of this problem the coup he had a family-his children had a school event,he couldn't be here.But I confirmed this moming,I said,are you
de gran so to speak is the fact that there is in this plan,a swimming pool,and this off the top of my head. I did see sure,are you positive lot coverage calculation and he said yes,yes I checked and I calculated everything and he's at
the numbers,27'somewhere in that+or-,I applaud people like that,who are the site plan people when they draw 22.7-2.7 over the 20%lot coverage.
these site plans,but I really honestly think it should be done in stages so the board,the neighbors everybody else can
see them as it's done in a stage.I think this stage should be the construction of the house and the deck,and then we MEMBER TORTORA: Let me just stop you right there.The plans we have do not show a grade level patio.They
are going to hear from Mr.Fishetti on what his feelings are regarding this,because I know he's an engineer.Then show steps going up to it. So if youte going to amend your plans I want to see amended plans showing it at grade,I
after the nurturing is done or whatever the applicant tends to do so that sand doesn't fall down on neighbors down want to see the lot calculations on that.
below on Sound Beach Road,then well talk about the swimming pool.
MRS.MOORE:But we can supply that to you to confirm that those things.
MRS.MOORE: Youte asking us to come back,fill out a separate application?
MEMBER TORTORA:I'd like to move this along.
CHAIRMAN: I am saying to you that in a utopian situation,that is the way it should be presented.Ion going to tell
you that Mr.Fishetti is going to have to be very convincing. I know Mr.Fishetti can be a very convincing person- MRS.MOORE:I know you have a lot of issues that you raised at the last meeting.When I read the transcript-
that's a generic statement,but lon telling you that's the problem we have.We have a neighbor that's-
MEMBER TORTORA:We asked for an engineers report testimonys fine,an engineers report would have been
MRS.MOORE:Let me address that because I want the board to have my review of the record reveals,which is Mr. fine.Ill make an observation.There's a bow in that retaining wall.
Tomatsu,when he was clearing the dead shrubbery on the bank,he accidentally-he admits and the neighbor admits
accidentally took out dead shrubbery that went beyond his properly line.As soon as he discovered it,he took Mrs. MRS.MOORE:Which retaining wall?
Lamoyne to Doroski's had her pick whatever she wanted which amount to 8 dwarf apple trees,paid for the materials
and paid for the planting of those trees,and from what we could tell,she seemed to be happy and satisfied that it was MEMBER TORTORA:The 20'concrete retaining wall on that side,it's quite visible.
taken care of and it was,and from doing it just yesterday,to check to see,because my memory was that they had
taken very well,and confirmed that yes,it's lush,it's taken,and they are growing the way it should.Yes there were MRS.MOORE:It's not his retaining wall,you understand that?
dead trees,the shrubs that were taken are still on his property piled up because he's so afraid to do anything,
everything is still there.It's the dead branches and everything are still piled up there.He absolutely was in the MEMBER TORTORA:You propose to put a garage up against that retaining wall at 0lot lines because well,it's
wrong,he admits it and he apologized,but let me say that he addressed it.Now as far as the bank goes,I do want going to support the garage,well frankly the retaining wall my fall into the garage.The fact that the retaining wall
Joe to address the bank because I asked Joe specifically,and hell tell you very point blank that the renovations for was put up in that manner-yes it is very intrusive-but the landowners bought that eyes open-
the house and the pool have no impact on the bank,none.We are going to address the bank and deal with it as far as
making sure it protects my clients property and certainly it protects anybody down at the bottom from any possible MRS.MOORE:No.That was not there when they bought.That was added after Mr.Tomasu bought.He bought
erosion that can occur for any reason because there are people on either side of him have the same bank and have in April 2000,that retaining wall went up just last summer.
similar structures and vegetation all kinds of ways up there that have been used to stabilize and maintain the bank.
CHAIRMAN:It was a wood/timber retaining wall.
CHAIRMAN:The majority of the people up there have been very lucky truthfully because there is very little that
has been done to those banks only because the wind forces that sand back into the bank.However,when I look at MRS.MOORE:Not to that extent.
this particular bank,Ion not an educated person regarding this I can tell you that it scares me.
MEMBER TORTORA:I live in the neighborhood.That was done in the middle ofthe winter.Just to note
MRS.MOORE: Let's have Joe,if you don't mind,Ill bring him right up now.You have my presentation of the ironically enough the retaining wall that youoe speaking about-I live in the neighborhood-Ill put myself in
area variance criteria we clearly,unless you want me continue with the area variance issues,I will proceed.If you evidence in testimony.That retaining wall had to be restored in emergency conditions because that whole bank
want to take a step into the issue that you are concerned about- blew out.I was there.I saw it.I saw the contractors working on it and I know the fellow who did the work So to
say that that's not a sensitive area-it is.
CHAIRMAN: What do you want to ask questions on George?
MRS.MOORE:No.What Ion saying is we now have to deal with a bunker looking properly.You tell me that you
MEMBER HORNING: Some of areas like the garage and the- would want to live next to that wall.
CHAIRMAN: Let's deal with the house first. MEMBER TORTORA:I would have filed a complaint.We don't want to see one bad situation on top of another.
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MRS.MOORE:No,I understand that. It is not a party wall.It is not using that wall as a structural support for the
garage. What we are trying to do is bring it as close to the wall as possible because ifyou leave the T setback that MRS.MOORE:What do you mean?
zoning would allow,you're going to have small vennin.You're going to have compost.You're going to have all
sorts of health issues that are going to develop in that small space.You almost have a situation like you have in the MEMBER TORTORA:A zero lot line on a garage?
city where you have the need for party walls because you dont want to leave an alley.
MRS.MOORE:But I've already explained what the reason is for the need for the garage on the 0 lot line.If you
MEMBER TORTORA: What if the wall collapses? leave it at 3,you tell me what is going to happen with that 18'wall with 3'you're going to be squeezing in trying to
clean out an area that's just going to be more offensive and more of a detriment of the neighborhood.The neighbor
MRS.MOORS: If it collapses,it collapses.It collapses on our property.It collapses on a garage that would be 3' has no objection to having the garage moved more toward the wall.He doesnt care.He didn't put any vegetation.
off the property line.The collapsing of that wall is going to be something that that property owner is going to have You seethe photographs.He vegetated his house is beautiful. He s got more vegetation than any other house in the
to deal with and I hope to god he used a good engineer and really when he constructed it used proper engineering neighborhood. Did he put one strand of vegetation on the side that impacts his neighbor,none.Now we have this
techniques because we cant assure we cant guarantee that wall is going to be there.Just like we cant guarantee you wall and we have the house that's going to be a 2"'story addition over an existing structure,and all he's asking for is
know whatever,but what we have to do is address the situation.We have an 18'wall as a side yard to our property a small garage that's a one car garage.The minimal garage that's necessary for any residents to keep the house
and that is so offensive to our property.He wants to put a garage in. Where else is he going to put it?He cant it on maintained.
the other side because there's too little side yard. It's a waterfront house so you're not,but it's not you can't put it in
the front yard because it would need a variance for a front yard and there really isn't much room for a front yard and CHAIRMAN:Lets go on with Mr.Fishetti.
most of the houses in that area do not have garages in the front yard.This is the logical place for it and the logical
place is also pushing it is close so that one you hide that 18'wall it creates some kind ofvisual screen. My JOE FISHETTI: Good evening,Ian Joe Fishetti.I wasnt here last hearing and I dont think Pat was.I received the
suggestion to Mr.Tomatsu because the board has done this in the past is putting 2 garage doors on the garage so minutes of the meetings and the transcripts and as Pat said it was all,I couldn't make head or tail of it but I know
there's always access,there's no concern about circular access in the property.He would have no problem with you wanted a report,I couldn't really get out of that transcript what type of report you wanted,Pat and I talked about
using 2 garage doors. It seemed like an easy solution there.But the movement pushed we dont have to be here for it,I went over there,I reviewed the property.I made my own feelings as to what would be needed there,but I did
3'offthe property line because at the right place,no its not the right place. not write a report,I thought I'd more or less talk to you tonight and see what direction you wanted because-
MEMBER TORTORA: What you said is true.You've got a small lot.And you've got pre-existing setbacks,you've CHAIRMAN:I'm unclear on how far the applicant owns down the bank that's number one.Ian unfamiliar to the
got Ton one side and Ton the other. way to the swimming pool on the top of a fragile bluff.That's number two.Number three,Ian worried about the
scoring of that bluff in the wintertime that would either undermine the swhnming pool,undermine any wall that
MRS.MOORE: It's 9.8,almost 10. might be placed.We cant say seaward but we can say northward,and that's my main concern.
MEMBER TORTORA:The bottom line is when you drive by that it's wall to wall building. MR.FISHETTI:When I was there I was more concerned with the top of the-we have to look at this differently
than a bluff that's on the ocean.We're using the same terms.This is not on the oceanfront where we have water,the
MRS.MOORE: What you have now is wall to house.That's what you have. problem there has always been the toe of the slope and erosion at the toe always the concern.Once the toe is
eroded,then the slope wants to find it's bank again.We don't have that problem here.The bottom ofthe slope is
MEMBER TORTORA:You're talking vertical,Ian talking horizontal and it just makes a situation that is very bad pretty well stabled because the houses down on the bottom have retaining walls,so they are all pretty well solid so
worse because- we dont have to,worry about that.The only other reason,once a slope reaches it's stable bank or the angle of repose
depending on the material that's there,the only thing that would cause it to change would bean earthquake which
MRS.MOORE: But dont punish Mr.Tomatsu for the actions of a neighbor that really offends the character of the would cause it to shake,erosion which it what you talked about and actual people at the top.Being at the top of that
neighborhood. bank,and coming to the edge and causing the top of the bank to erode just from use now that's what I looked at.
When we were dealing with bluffs on the sound side,we have setbacks. We don't have setbacks here.He can use-
MEMBER TORTORA:He is one that wants to go up two stories T from the property line on one side Ton the he can walk right up to the edge there,stand on the bank,the bank goes down. My concern was stability.
other,and then he wants to put a garage so that when you drive by that you're going to see wall to wall building.
That's why you're here for variances. Youre not here because it was within the parameters of the law. CHAIRMAN: Mr.Fishetti,as you know you've testified before this board many times.You area local resident in
this town and normally you know,we swear people in particularly professional engineers but we know you so we
MRS.MOORE:But let's assume that the garage-no,no he's off by 2.7 of lot coverage so if he can squeeze- are not going to do that. In your professional opinion,is there going to be a change in the angle of repose in your
opinion or any change that would cause a major blowout of either the stone area on top of the swimming pool,any
MEMBER TORTORA:Both sides. cause to worry about the swimming pool on the original plan that's before us at ground level that is and to include
those brick walls or the brick tabors around it.Is there anything that we have to worry about in your professional
MRS.MOORE: But you have a pre-existing 1%z story house.You have right now a 2n'story on that house.He opinion?
wants to improve it and dorm it so his family can fit in the house. It's not an unreasonable request,it's still a
relatively small house.Look at the house next door.Look at the size of that property. MR.FISHETTI:That swimming pool is outside the angle of load on that bank.In other words,if that angle of
repose is greater than what is required,if the swimming pool is closer than that angle,it would cause impact on that
MEMBER TORTORA:I dont know how it got there and I cant explain how the people did what they did. angle.That swimming pool is almost 25'back I think.But it's way beyond any impact on that bluff.
MRS.MOORE: But that's the character of the area.You're ready to deny a diminimus 2.7 lot coverage. CHAIRMAN:I know you're not a landscape engineer and I'm not putting you in that position,but what can we
plant northward of that swimming pool to preserve that area so that there is no load on that bank.
MEMBER TORTORA: For lot coverage only.Not on a side yard and not on the garage.
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MR.FISHETTI:What Itn recommending here,and I can give you- the toe which is fine.It's not going to erode from water which it does on a bluff and well do a small retainer-it's a
very small wooden retaining wall,not anything that's major,just to protect it from washing out and understand,by
CHAIRMAN:You don't have to give it to me tonight.You can send it. me raising all the roofrunoffgoes into-the town requires it to be in drywells.I now raised that grade and pitched
everything backwards.
MR.FISHETTI:What we want to do here is stabilize the top of that slope.I've talked to Rambo,Tom Samuels and
we want to put a bulkhead wall at the top.What happens there-do you have a survey that shows? MEMBER OLIVIA:I would want a soil survey.
CHAIRMAN:Yes. MR.FISHETTI:It's all sand.I have a test hole here.I have it right here.It's all sandy soil.It goes sand down to
15'.
MR.FISHETTI:The top of that bluff is not straight.
MEMBER OLIVIA:Sorry,Joe-I've seen too many of these.I'm really scared for the people above it and the
CHAIRMAN:That's correct. people below.I reafly am.
MR.FISHETTI:It slopes back.The angle of repose on the west side is 41 degrees and probably higher.As you MR.FISHETTI:We're scared too.
go to the east side,it's 28 degrees,now you are getting farther away from that area,so it gets more stable.What we
want to do is bring a retaining wall. It's really a bulkhead wall,cutting that across there.And what we would end MEMBER OLIVIA:It's a big liability.
up doing is having,trying to stabilize the bluffat an optimum 33-35 degrees. So the side that's further back would
be filled in and the bottom would be about 35 degrees and the front one would actually be cut back and that also MR.FISHETTI:We need to address the problems that we can address.
would bring it more stable.That's two things,one it would bring it more stable,it brings the slope to it's optimum
angle of repose and it protects it's top another thing in that the top of that bulkhead would be about a foot higher than MEMBER OLIVIA:I can see doing something with the house,but having that pool with that in the back scares the
the existing grade.Right now the grades slope forward which causes erosion.If I could bring that just slightly heck out of me.
higher,I'd have it pitched backward so we won't have erosion.And if Mr.Tomatsu could come here,he could walk -
right up to the edge. His kids could come and play. It's not going to affect that bank.By doing that first step,which MR.FISHETTI:I appreciate that.
is a very expensive wall,we would stabilize the top of the bank,bring the rest of it at this angle of repose and now
we would plant the bottom. CHAIRMAN:Last question is did you get a chance to evaluate the wall itself that's next to this?
MEMBER TORTORA: So you'd backfill in there?Backfill to a right angle. MRS.MOORE:I don't think he wants to give an opinion on the structural integrity of that wall.
MR.FISHETTI: Right.It's just a straight line right across.And then the rest of the slope,what would happen MEMBER TORTORA:If you don't want to give an opinion on the structural integrity,then why the heck would
would be the rest of the retaining wall which would be black sheet piles actually very nice Mr.Samuels gave me you want to put a garage against it?
some pictures.I'd be glad to share them with you.Would be exposed about 6-8'and the bottom ofthe slope would
be at a constant angle,and we would plant that. I'm not doing the planting.I told Pat my father was a landscaper MRS.MOORE:That's got nothing to do with it.
but I don't know how to do that stuff and we would get somebody to do that.Wind erosion is the only erosion you'd -
have there and that bank will be stable and what's there,that swimming pool will not affect that bank.That will MEMBER TORTORA:That's the bottom line.And if you don't want to then well have our town engineer give his
solve all those problems.That's what Ill propose.That's what we are going to do. opinion.
CHAIRMAN:Fine. I thank you.Any questions for Mr.Fishetti? MR.FISHETTI: I really didn't look at it Lydia.
MEMBER OLIVIA:I don't agree. CHAIRMAN:Thank you,Mr.Fishetti.The only thing left I think Mrs.Moore,are some issues that you wanted to
bring up quickly or can we take them out of your brief that you have given us.
CHAIRMAN:That is the first concrete statement that I have regardless if anybody agrees.That's no reflection on
you,Ruth. MRS.MOORE: I think my brief has all of the points and some of you have made up your minds it's difficult to
persuade you otherwise.I think my argument stands.You have to be reasonable when you are looking at this
MEMBER OLIVIA:I know you had an architect here. I've been trying to read the transcript,that's really the way property,the 2.7 if we were to eliminate the gazebo I think we fall within the lot coverage.So we're not asking for
to solve that. I don't agree because I looked at the bottom of that bluff,it's eroding badly.The weight of the that much and I know I've been here many a times asking for a lot more lot coverage and we have a client who's
swimming pool,I don't care if you bean it up or what,you have the weight of that swimming pool,you're going to addressing the bank.He was trying to put up his own wall and knew fast enough not to do anything and I think
have the runoff from the gutters and what-have-you going down that bluff.It's all sand down at the bottom there, that's the activity you saw there because he very quickly realized that you need a professional and you need to do it
and they have these little wooden things holding the thing in Joe.Frankly I don't trust it.I would not want the right,so fortunately he stopped and you see what's there.You see the planks,but that's his own activity,he stopped
safety on my shoulders.I cant approve it. immediately when he saw that was way beyond the scope of his abilities,and so we have the engineer with his
expert testimony that he stated how we can stabilize this and that it is stable and the fact that the pool and the house
MR.FISHETTI:If for any reason when we're doing that construction we can protect anything up to our property will have no impact on it beyond that,what more can I tell you.
line. We will protect at that property line that toe.I looked at it,it looks reasonably stable. It's only a matter of
adding stability at that toe.If you can stop it from eroding,that's all you have to do. If it's a matter of doing an CHAIRMAN:You were going to give us a letter saying that the deck areas aren't grade.
additional small retaining wall to protect that toe,our client will do that on his property line.It's not going to go off
his property line,then it's up to anyone else. I can't do anything off the property line our concern again is to protect MEMBER TORTORA:You were going to give us a revised plan,show the grade.
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100-243 to Reverse the Building Department's determination which states that the proposed addition/alterations to
MRS.MOORE: I have to check with the architect and see what plan because we got confused on which one's he's an existing restaurant establishment is not permitted in a Residential R40 District,or alternatively a Variance
got.Ill have him give me the final plan of where everything is going to go and we can just show you,again,the lot authorizing the proposed addition to the existing restaurant,a nonconforming use in a nonconfom»ng building;and
coverage is only the structures that are showing on the survey at this point.Is there any other questions? (b)a setback variance is also requested under Section 100-244B for an addition to the existing building which will
be less than 40'from the front property line. Location of Property:Comer of the east side of Kenny's Road and the
CHAIRMAN:Is there anybody else in the audience who wishes to discuss this with the board?Mrs.Moore,we are south side of North Sea Drive,Southold;Parcel 1000-54-5-22.
going to recess this to the next regularly scheduled meeting for closing,no more verbatim testimony-well send a
letter over Mr.Richter. CHAIRMAN: Council is standing at the mike,we're going to ask him to identify himself,although we know who
he is,and then we are going to go over some ground rules,and then well go from there.
MRS.MOORE: Okay,he can go and look at it.
GEORGE TUNIS,ESQ:Thank you Mr.Chairman,my name is George Tunis,I'rn with the law firm of Rifkin
CHAIRMAN:And have him go and look at the whole thing,and well go from there. Radler,EAB Plaza,Uniondale,NY.I'm the attorney for the applicant,Cliff and Phil's Lobster House Inc.
commonly known as Elbow East restaurant.
MRS.MOORS: I did ask Mr.Tomatsu very quickly if you want to increase the distance to the rear,if you want to
bring the pool closer to the house,we have a little bit of room to play with bringing the pool closer to the house,if CHAIRMAN: What we need from you is to pass this around to everybody so that we have everybody in the
that's something the board would want us to consider. audience,and hopefully their telephone numbers so if we need to get back to anybody,we will be able to do so.I
am expecting this hearing to go no later than 10:45 and so I'm going to ask everybody to kind of step it up,and with
CHAIRMAN: 10 or 15'would be wonderful. that in mind-
MEMBER TORTORA:I just want to see how youre going to put the pool and the barbeque and the gazebo and all Chairman,can I ask you to ask the people to identify themselves as Kermys Beach Civic Association member as
of that with the tile at grade level, opposed to those who are with Cliffs?Would that be out of line?
MRS.MOORE: Okay,and any of those structures obviously you can mandate that you have proper drywells so any CHAIRMAN: Everybody will be sworn in,they can tell us after they are sworn in-where they live if they choose
hard structures go into drywells so if you're concerned about mnoff going anywhere- to do so.It would make more sense to do that.We can try that.
MEMBER TORTORA:You would show that on the plans. MR.TUNIS: Chairman,as you are aware,the restaurant is located at 50 North Sea Road,at the comer of Kenn3ls
Road in Southold,the parcel is approximately22,000 sq.ft.it is zoned residential as this board is aware.It was
MRS.MOORE:Alright,Ill ask the architect to show it as well. subject to an upzoning without compensation about a decade ago,and exists as a pre-existing non-conforming use.
The issue before this board this evening-there are several issues but the applicant seeks reliefboth with area and
CHAIRMAN:The next regularly scheduled meeting is 12-12-02,so we would really like have this in our hot little use variances to renovate and expand an existing restaurant.We wish to bring the restaurant into ADA American
hands about 5 business days before that. Disabilities Act compliance,add a handicap lift,handicap bathrooms.We also wish to beautify the restaurant and
expand it.At this point and time,Mr.Chairman,I have prepared a briefing book for all the members of the board
MEMBER TORTORA: Otherwise we are going to be recessing that again to review plans. and introduced it into the record as an exhibit.If you may indulge me for a minute that I may go through it with
you,we have a summary of the application I have here photos of the current restaurant. We have north elevation
MRS.MOORE:Ill ask the architect. Ill do my best to get it to you before than.So the pool moved over and east elevation west elevation,and east elevation and that is in tab 2. You can see the current state of the building.I
showing all drywells and hard surfaces. would call it under whehning and I think everyone might agree that it could be more beautiful.These are some
pictures of the interior in tab 3-you clearly have a photo that has a bar area with 18 bar seats currently.You can see
MEMBER TORTORA:And where you're going to have drainage for the pool,overflow for the bank. the bathrooms as they swing out into the lounge area behind tab 4,we have the site plan.I have the elevations as
well.Tab 6 is the public hearing notice and the paper which I'm appealing from the Notice of Disapproval.I have a
MEMBER OLIVIA: Right,everything. memorandum of law tab 7.I did this as the hour is late and there's many speakers and this is the second time we are
doing this,I have listed the criteria in the proofs for both the area variance and the use variances on paper for the
CHAIRMAN:And basically a small synopsis of what Mr.Fishetti has told us. record that you can read at your leisure so I don't need to be redundant.Mrs.Tortora you had mentioned that you
see all the cases that I mentioned in the prior hearing.I have them all for you behind tab 8.Tab 9 there are 600
MRS.MOORE:Yes,Joe will give us a report now that he understands where you're focused. signatures an overwhelming majority from the Town of Southold,all of which are patrons of the restaurant and
support of this application.I know that's not depositive and I know that public reaction does not factor into this
CHAIRMAN:The date is 5 business days before the 121°of December.Thank you very much.Good night. board's duties,but I thought that it would be helpful to show the support that the restaurant has.I also have because
Everybody has been waiting patiently.We have been here 3 hours.We will break for 5 minutes before the final this is going to be part of my proof For a use variance.The certified financial statements for the establishment and I
hearing of the evening.We are recessing it to no more verbatim testimony recessed until December 12'"for the have professional written testimony by a recognized expert behind tab I I which I will get into a little later.As you
purposes of closure. are aware this is a pre-existing non-confomting use.It's a residential area. Clearly no one is denying that.Also no
one has objected to operating a restaurant which has a legal and valid right to operate in this neighborhood.It's been
there since the 1950's.But people always have concerns.Some very sensible,some maybe a little misguided.
Judge Cardosa in 1927 recognized that the ZBA should have an important function a delegate jurisdiction,and one
9:16 pm App1 No.5051-CLIFF AND PHIL'S LOBSTER HOUSE.(Continued hearing from February 28, not easily abused that under special circumstances and there really needs to be special circumstances,that ZBA's are
2002).Based on the Building Department's Notice of Disapproval issued November 13,2001,amended/updated permitted to grant use variances.That's why we are here.Upon a showing of unnecessary hardship,general rules
October 22,2002,applicant requests zoning determinations for:(a)an Interpretation under Article XXIV,Section are suspended in this case for a pre-existing establishment,one in a residential zone for the benefit of individual
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
owners and special privileges are established where the burden of special exception creates a special hardship.To CHAIRMAN:They mayor may not stand.We can always take a recess so everybody can review it.
this end,NYS law stated it is to promote equal justice.Where there is a situation that is so unfair where the
applicant cannot properly operate a business and have a reasonable rate of return,ZBA's have swore fit to grant MR.TUNIS:Because one of the prongs are the character and nature of the community,we have taken various
variances to create social justice.An unnecessary hardship has several prongs.You cannot achieve a financial photos of the surrounding homes. I think you will find these homes to be very large in nature and with a very out-
return.This has to be shown to the board with dollars and cents,certified financial data.In the prior hearing,years stated peaked roof and dormers.I think you will see that two of these homes are adjacent to the restaurant.There is
2000 and 2001 certified financial documents were given to this board.Respectively they showed a 25,000 and a million dollar home that is being constructed across the street that I have a photo of and rd like to enter them as
4,500 annual loss.Since the calendar financial year ends on June 30'",I now have 2002 certified financial returns, exhibits into the record.I'd also like to point out how the restaurant would use the proposed expansion.And if I
and I'd like to give them to you for the record.Mr.Chairman,2002 was a better year than 2001.It showed a$1,700 may,I'd like to turn your attention to this floor plan.W&e asking for an approximately 1400 sq.ft.addition,
profit for the year as certified by our accountants under oath.The law is quite clear on this.That an individual approximately 32%of that or approximately 400 sq.ft.will be a dining area,approximately 34%of that and 476 sq.
needs to have a reasonable return on a lawsuit there were losses in the two prior years.That's not the standard ft.will be all your halls,bathrooms,again to become ADA compliant.There will be a handicap lift access to
there's not to be a loss there needs to be a reasonable return.Clearly the owners can go with their jobs elsewhere become handicap compliant.I cannot tell you the importance of providing facilities so that handicap members of
and get a greater return.Another prong is the uniqueness prong that stems out of the Douglas Inn Civic Association our community can properly access and again that creates one of those special situations where relief should be
case.The uniqueness prong is very novel.There was a concern by the legislature courts and ZBA's that said if we granted in these cases.There is a utility storage area of approximately 80%or 120 sq.ft.and there is a lounge area
grant the relief the applicant is seeking now do we not go on a slippery slope.These are not to be handed out like addition of approximately 375 sq.ft.the size of a hotel room which is approximately 26%of the proposed
candy,if you want that you go to the Town Board and you get a change of zone.They are not to be handed out expansion.I'd like an opportunity to discuss what type of restaurant has been operating there and I'd lice to call the
cavalierly so this situation needs to be one of uniqueness.It doesnl have to be the only one.It has to be less than owner Mr.Berliner to call some testimony. III be doing it in the form of questions.
the majority.And I would ask this court to take judicial notice that this situation is the only one in that particular
neighborhood.This restaurant has been around since the 50's.It's the only one-it's now a residentially zoned CHAIRMAN:Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give us is the truth to the best of your
property. If it ever burnt down-if 50%of ifs value was decimated,you couldn't rebuild it and I want everyone to knowledge?
understand-all the neighbors-if this board grants this particular relief other neighbors cannot tear down their
houses and build restaurants.This is it,it's the only one.It's the only one.It's the only parcel that once had a WILLIAM BERLINGER:I do.
commercial designation,was an existing restaurant in that whole community.There is no president set here.This is
a very unique parcel and as I mentioned earlier,the uniqueness is exasperated because it was the site it was the CHAIRMAN:Can you state your name please?
subject of a taken.It was upzoned with no compensation.It makes it further unique and in the interest ofjustice
and fairness,you should be able to operate a business and seek relief in an effort to improve their business and seek MR.BERLINGER:William Benjamin Berlinger,Jr.
a financial return.Whereas if they didn't have that upzone,we wouldn't have to be here for most of these variances.
The last prong is the character and nature of the community.I have before you a report by Andrew Stype who I CHAIRMAN:Thank you.
believe is recognized as an expert. He has done an analysis of all the home in the area,both the inland homes the
inland lots and the waterview homes,and in conclusion,his high load difference for inland homes is 88-90% MR.TUNIS:Mr.Berlinger what is your occupation?
increase from 2001 to 2002.His inland lots indicate an increase from 41-73%and his waterview homes indicate an
increase from 21-44%and I would ask this board to take judicial notice of what I think many of the neighbors MR.BERLINGER:I am a chef and along with my sister,an owner of Elbow East.
already know over the last 10 years property values in this neighborhood have appreciated and appreciated
substantially and what I respectfully present to this board is that I'm sure that some people will try to make this MR.TUNIS:And how long have you been associated with the restaurant?
restaurant out to be the nastum of the community.Property values have gone nowhere but up it's been
complimentary to the community.This restaurant was here before most of these homes.Asa matter of fact,this MR.BERLINGER:It will be 14 years this coming March.
community-
MR.TUNIS:And can you describe for us what type of restaurant you operate.
MEMBER OLIVIA: Can you please go up to the mike?We can't hear you.
MR.BERLINGER:It's a family restaurant.We have 2 dining rooms and a small lounge.
MR.TUNIS: Ion sorry.I was going to show you some elevations.This community was one of beach bungalows.
Beach bungalows that over the years were tom down,and homes built,and I think it the trend follows many manses MR.TUNIS:Could you describe to us a little bit about the menu?
and mansions being built.I think many of the neighbors and learned council more stated that many of these homes
are going for a million dollars now.Talk about changing the nature of the community. I think most of the people in MR.BERLINGER:We are mainly steak and seafood.Of course our marinated steaks have been a famous item on
this neighborhood have participated in creating equity and value in tearing down which were beach bungalows or at the North Fork for quite a few years,and surf and turf and fresh seafood.
the very least in expanding and renovating existing homes creating new ones,creating equity for themselves and
good for them,good for them. But clearly,the trend in this community has been to much larger homes.If I can I'd MR.TUNIS:Could you tell us a little bit about your patronage?
like to point out as to what we are proposing to do,but before I do that,if you look behind one of the tabs,you will
see what the premises looks like today. Clearly it's box in nature from every standpoint.The area which we are MR.BERLINGER:Well we are open for lunch everyday and our lunch is very reasonable and I would say mainly
going to construct the expansion does not unhinge on the parking lots so well be able to have the sufficient 43 ifs senior citizens.We have some people that work in the area quite a bit.And at night,again a lot of senior
parking spaces,but clearly I think anyone would say that this could be better,and it's not keeping within the citizens because our menu is reasonable all the way through.And a lot of families mainly on weekends.You know
character and nature of our Southold community.What we are proposing is a building that has peaks and mortars the people are out for pumpkins and to visit vineyards and so forth.
and flat board.I think it's very sensitive.It does cost a lot of money,but I think it's a great improvement for what
does currently exist. I think it looks more like the homes being built than the current restaurant and this is the front MR.TUNIS:Are there associations and trades?
entrance and if you don't mind Ill put them over here so the neighbors can see them.
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
MR.BERLINGER:We have Lions Club meetings,fire departments,Southold Town PBA was there a few weeks was applied for.Now an occupancy rating ofthe restaurant from what I can tell,I went to look at the Health
ago. Department applications sometimes all the information is in here in our own records.I went and reviewed the health
department records.Often times you see what you are looking for in other agencies.When I went and reviewed the
MR.TUNIS:The Southold PBA.Can you tell us in the 13 years that you have been there if there have been Health Department records,the'88 application after the fire or actually it was right before the fire was occupancy of
altercations? '49 so we know that at one point in time in the'80's it started out with about 49 occupancy rating.In'88 the Health
Department reviewed the application after the kitchen fire.That would be'88 application in the application which I
MR.BERLINGER:Never.Not once. attach here so you can see for yourself,the application for the Health Department asked you to identify what you
have and then what you want.What you had at the time was 49,what you requested was 70.After extensive review
MR.TUNIS: Sounds like a nice place.Thank you sir.This concludes my application. In chief,much of our by the Health Department,the Health Department granted them seating for 70. in'89,between'88 and'89 there was
professional testimony you have in written form.I did want to keep it brief.I look forward,Mr.Chairman,to a kitchen fire and they came in for an application for the Building Department for repairs to roof replace unsound
answering any questions this board or any of the neighbors may have. framing members all windows,floors,wall covering insulation and new kitchen.What actually ended up happening
is that there is a re-arrangement of the building and they ended up with 78 seats.Now at the time that the variance
CHAIRMAN:Thank you sir.Mrs.Moore,good evening again. was granted in'89,excuse me'84,the zoning had already changed the zoning of this area was in the'70's because in
'84 when the application for this board was made,it was made as a use variance,so we know that at that time,it was
PATRICIA MOORE,ESQ: Good evening. I have a memo for the board.I would like to begin with-III try to be one of the zone changes that occurred between 70 and'82 so right off the bat this was and has been for a very long
loud.III get loud later as I get heated I'rm sure.I would like to point out that after reviewing the documents in the time,a nonconfomung use.That's important because in most recent times when the board was looking,the previous
file and the testimony from the previous meeting. I had some difficulty in figuring out what the actual sq.footage is or current board was doing the rezoning on Rt.48 there was a consideration for nonconforming uses and it was
because every time I look at a document,it's a little off or it's a different number.In my memo I put down the primarily for the properties that we about to be or could be rezoned on Rt.48 when the zoning was adjusted up on
existing building that is shown as 2,860 sq.ft.it comes from one of the documents that is currently submitted, the North Road and certain properties were nonconfonning the board at that time looked at it and said you know,we
however when I look at a'84 site plan which was submitted to the ZBA in their files.It comes to 2580.75 sq.ft. I are listening to you,we hear you,we are going to give you an opportunity to get you some form of relief and the
think that's relevant because with respect to the ordinance and the degree of expansion that this board will have to board in the code provides for a 15%as of right increase and I would submit to this board because they benefited
determine whether or not its applicable,the existing sq.footage is important so I think you have to reach a already for a sizable use variance and expansion.They went from the 46 to the 70 according to the permits when in
conclusion as to what is the actual legal sq.footage of this building.I couldn4 tell from the numerous documents,it fact 78 pieces and some of the paperwork here so it grew a little bit by 8 seats,but more or less in that general range,
varies somewhat. so in'89 the building and the nonconforming use was expanding by 63%.That's an enormous-this board granted a
very generous use variance and a sizable expansion at that time,and you did consider the area variances to the street.
CHAIRMAN: Can I just ask a question regarding all that?I think the issue is when was the fire?And what You did consider the neighborhood and the fact that they wanted to renovate,do some small renovations,I think it
occurred. was considered a small sunroom type of expansion,but the end result was that there wasn't in your files any internal
layout that gave an idea of what the seating was and how many seats there really were so in effect after the
MRS.MOORE:I am going to get into that.Let me just go in the order of my points.My first point is in respect to renovations and the use variance there was a huge expansion of 63%.Now they've got an application in 2002 that
the standards of the use variance and the need to prove no reasonable return and financial hardship.I actually they are asking for 144'.I've looked at the floor plan and by count I looked at the proposed floor plan and again still
submitted the original tax return to one of our members who had access to a very fine accounting firm of Captain they are not providing you and you haven%asked them or I can'ttell that you've asked them for an existing floor
and Negrin in Great Neck.They actually do work on the south side for restaurants as well as are very familiar with plan.What are the number of seats that you have there now?Because how are you going to control the expansion if
restaurant accounting.I've submitted attached to this memo the letter that they review the analysis or statement that you don%know what they have there now.It's very tricky and it's very easy to massage a building when you are
was prepared for the 2000-2001 and they criticize or critique that statement and essentially what they conclude is asking for a handicap bathroom to put it in the middle of the building and all of a sudden the whole thing gets
based on that statement,they can't conclude that there is financial hardship.The disclosures wren%sufficient to renovated and everybody gets new seating and it suddenly grows.We believe the best from the applicant,but on the
really review the financial data and come to a conclusion the big question why the June 30,2002 wasn't submitted other hand,we want to control it.Going back to the numbers,118 seats at the table and 26 seats at the bar.From
and thank you Mr.Tunis and his client for submitting it,now I will send that off to the accountant to give additional what I can tell from a photograph actually that was in your files,and again,I really want this board to ask-I would
information that will help therm with the financial data. If I could very quickly also review the-they point out what ask the board to ask the applicant to supply internal layout of the seating.Lees find out how many actual barstools
we obviously already know restaurant is a cash basis business and the information that was certified to is based there are,but I think the actual from what I can count from photographs and layouts,there are about 8.So he's
again on the clients documentation that they give to the accountant and again they could not verify the information going from 8 to 26 barstools.And he's going from whatever the number of seats are for the restaurant up to 144,
that was submitted to them for the financial statement.They also analyze the breakdown of sales and cost and in however the numbers break up.That's from my calculations,almost 300%increase.That's way offthe charts,it far
particular the turnaround,the seating of the profit is actually in the number of times you can turn the seats during the exceeds any standards.It's unfair to place and I know there are a lot of people here in support and there are a lot
work week during the weekday off season you may turn around,turn the tables over 4 or 5 times whereas in the people here in opposition.Your pitting 2 groups against each other and everybodys very cordial and nice but we
summer peak you might have the tables tam over 20 times that's actually if you were buying a restaurant business shouldn t have been placed in that position.Ask for something reasonable.It might be considered,it certainly will
you would be looking for that kind of data to determine exactly what is what is the profitability of this restaurant. be considered by this board it would be considered by the neighbors.What they've asked for is truly off the charts.
Again,he mentioned that he is the chef I didn t realize that chef/owner he does state in the financial data 135 for the Again looking back at the ordinance the way it's written,you have a great deal of discretion on how you're going to
budget or salaries of the chef is there more than 1 chef. Other issues like depreciation that it comes right off the top interpret that section of the code it is the first time it's going to be interpreted and I would submit to you that you
it comes back in these are accounting methods to minimize your tax consequence but on the other hand it's not should interpret it very narrowly because in this instance,they have had a 60%expansion not that long ago,certainly
determative of profit so the financial statement does not meet the burden that is required and it is a very difficult in the Chairman's lifetime on this board and you're all local,you've seen it yourselves you've probably been there in
burden for the applicant to establish a use variance.This board know and the attorney knows it is tantamount to a the time frame that theyve done the renovation.So I would ask you to be very careful ask for the right information
legislative act and it is an extremely high burden going on to the other points,as I went through I tried to find out and limit them very carefiully.I did provide to you a 1977 citation which was actually was a bullstring of what the
what was the expansion history,what was the history of this property.To some extent it was given last time and we board can do.You are permitted to-obviously you have that right under the statute,but you will be sustained by
know from last time and we know from one of the neighbors that testified that lived there that she said she lived court,particularly that it's being reviewed by the first time.By this board it's being applied for the first time.If we
there in the 50's and yes the building was there,but it was a hot dog stand.That's how it started,a very small very were to apply the ordinance with the 15%as of right lot coverage,or expansion of the footprint because it's very
innocuous seasonal type of food establishment.Thereafter in 1984 we know from the towns records that a variance clear it's a footprint-15%of the legally existing structure,again going back to what is the size that is legally
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Novei�� �, 2002-Regular Meeting November 14,2002-Regular Meeting
Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
existing there,I come to 387 sq.ft.That's what a 15%expansion ofthe footprint.That's not very much.That could MR.TUNIS:Certainly,sir,if this board would tam to tab 5 and go to the last sheet of paper and let me make a
give them a handicap bathroom.That would deal with it.If they need a handicap ramp,well I think they have a point clear.There are currently 18 bar seats and 74 dining seats for a total of 92.Those are barstools included
handicap ramp,but if they want an additional one,that certainly nobody would object to that,but the type of which would not factor into the Health Department calculations.This is not a Health Department matter that is
expansion,the type of proposal,the proposal is being made is just not acceptable,I would also ask if they are using under the jurisdiction ofthe Board of Review.We are proposing to go to 26 bar seats and increase it 8 and we are
and their sq.footage calculations and their renovation,the outdoor seating.It was not clear in my review of the asking to go to 98 dining seats,an increase of 24 the total seating will go from 92 to 124,32 additional seats.That's
plans if when they are looking at the sq.footage and the expansion if there is some outdoor seating area that may approximately a 1/3%increase-you have in your booklets the current site plan with the amount of seats.You also
have been used in the total square footage calculation and that shouldn't be.That's not-that's outside seating area have the proposed expansion clearly delineates areas that are dining lounge and foyer bathroom.Handicap ramp,
and are they planning to replace it with another outside seating area. handicap bathroom,handicap lift Ion sorry if there was confusion but they were in the booklets and are here
available.This drawing is not correct.That is the proposed-what you have in your left hand is what is existing.
CHAIRMAN:Mrs.Moore-when I was over there this past weekend,it was clearly stated to me by Mr.Berlinger- What you have in your right hand is what is proposed and the difference is 32 seats,24 in the dining room,8 in the
there is no outside seating.I don't know what you are talking about. lounge area. .
MRS.MOORE: It showed on a plan. I didn't know either,Ion afraid to go over there to dinner now because until CHAIRMAN:Before we leave that point,the purpose of the red diagonal area is an area that I assume has been
this is over and it all blows over,I don't think III have some soup. I m sure they wouldn't want to bring me harm, brought up to me to be the smoking lounge,the smoking restaurant area?
but just in case I think Ill skip it.They area very good restaurant.If there's no seating,that's fine. But it shows up
on a plan in one ofthe site plans that was one ofthe site plans that was the'84 or'86 proposal I didn't know if that MR.TUNIS:It's one ofthe-on February 28 when we were before this board,it was to be an enclosed smoking
had been incorporated into the overall expansion or not.Again,I'm working with paper and certain things showing dining room.A dining room for smoking patrons early. The thought was to enclose the area and protect the other
on paper verses what in actuality is there. patrons in the lounge area and the other dining area from second hand smoke.We ask this board to not only do a
code interpretation ofthe American Disabilities Act also the smoking laws of Suffolk County that it would be a
CHAIRMAN:Just clearly state this so I can understand it.Prior to the fire,which you say occurred in 1988,the benefit to the entire community and an improvement to the restaurant and under those circumstances that the court
seating capacity was what? allows you to consider to grant the expansion provided we do good things with this.The law still exists. I don't
know if it's going to continue to exist,so with good faith I can't come up here and say we are asking for this
MRS.MOORE:In'84,49.What I took that from is look at the Health Department application made by the owner expansion solely for the purposes ofthe protection of second hand smoke.That may or may not be rendered mute,
in'88.That has the-here SC Dept.of Health application for construction of sewer disposal facility water supply but today with the existing law,that is our plan.
right on rated occupancy on the first column on the right hand side it says it's-
MEMBER TORTORA:When you say a code interpretation ofthe ADA,and you say a code interpretation smoking
CHAIRMAN:That's 1984,prior to- laws,you're way out of my league,I'm not sure what you mean.
MRS.MOORE:The application and Health Department says'88.What happens is your files don't have an MR.TUNIS:Town law 267B provides for legislature grants this board tremendous authority you sit as a quasi-
occupancy,and your variance application,I could not find anything telling me what the occupancy,how many judicial body you sit as a body that interprets everything.
tables,how many seatings,how many bodies were going to be in there.It was clearly on the sq.footage calculations
and so I went backwards. MEMBER TORTORA:When you interpret the town code by-law,267B ofNYS town law-
CHAIRMAN:What are you telling me 1988,prior to the fire was. MR.TUNIS:You are also granted powers of interpretation,you are the body that can overrule the zoning
enforcement officer what I've asked this board to do under their powers granted by 267E l is to give us an
MRS.MOORE:Ion saying that prior to the fire from what I can tell it would have been 49.In'88 when whether interpretation as to whether we fit within the special circumstances and as to a benefit to the community to allow us
maybe they can clarify the history for me,but did they do the renovations,then have a fire,then do another additional areas to 1.provide handicap accessible facilities,a proper foyer,proper bathrooms and a handicap lift
renovation?My guess is that before they started renovations they had a fire,now they actually went ahead and did because if you've been to the restaurant,you know that its sort of on 2 different-the demarcation is slightly
the full renovation,but before they could do that,they needed Health Department.They may have had a variance different and you'd have to go up steps to go up to the dining room that we would provide a handicap lift.In
from this board in fact the Building Department issuing the'89 building permit referred back to the variance that addition to that-
was granted in'84 in order to grant that'89 permit.They used it as a basis to grant this because it was already I
don't want to say as a right it ran with the land and it was there. MEMBER TORTORA:In special circumstances,this is extremely important,the special circumstances is in lieu of
meeting the criteria ofthe use variance is that,am I?
CHAIRMAN: How much more do you have to go,I'd like to clear this issue up.
MR.TUNIS:Yes there are,we have asked for relief in terms of a use variance and in the alternative,under your
MRS.MOORE: Please clarify it. powers under 267B 1 to make an interpretation and to overrule the decision made by the zoning officer ofthe
Building Department to allow additional space to provide enclosed smoking facilities to protect the citizenry from
CHAIRMAN:Are you able to clarity this tonight,Mr.Tunis? second hand smoke and to provide handicap and proper and compliant handicap accessible facilities for the entire
community.
MR.TUNIS:Yes Chairman.Do you want me to speak on that issue alone,or various other points that council has
brought up? MEMBER TORTORA:The smoking as you've just conceded I mean since we don't know the outcome of that law
and since you certainly there would be no desire on your part to covet that it be permanently be used as a smoking
CHAIRMAN:The point is that I just want to clear that issue up,and then what I'd like you to do is hold those,well area,I'tn sure in view ofthe fact that that law could change at any time,that would be very difficult,it would also be
go to the audience,and then we'll come back with a wrap up or else it becomes counterproductive. so we can hopefully get you through this by the end ofthe year 2005.
Page c Hearing • Page 44-Public Hearing �I
Novemb 2002-Regular Meeting November 14,2002-Regular Meeting
Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
MR.TUNIS: I would appreciate it and I will test my good friend Pat Moore's soup if she goes into the restaurant. If
I lose,I may have a problem. CHAIRMAN:Anybody else on the east side?Go ahead.Raise your right hand sir.Do you solemnly swear the
information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
CHAIRMAN: Mrs.Moore,we cant ask you to reflect on anything that was just said,but I would like to continue if
it's alright with you. We are going to start with the left hand side which is my left,your right which we refer to the TOM SADOSKI:My name is Tom Sadoski-I live on Hyatt Road,Horton's Point.Itn not adjacent to the
east northeast side of the building,and well ask anybody if they would like to speak.The nice lady in the back of restaurant,I frequent it quite often for dinner,Ibe known the owners for a long time,I've know Cliff Saunders for a
the room on the west side very simply said if you are part of the Kenn}?s beach association or you are a community long time.I see nothing wrong with the addition and grass cutters don%make 80 grand a year,Pm one of them.But
person in that area and you'd like to recognize that you are certainly welcome to I can%force anybody to do it is a nice place to go for dinner,and ifs a nice place to go and watch a football game with our neighbors.There's
anything.However you will be sworn in and I will ask you to give us your statement if there are any spokespersons been a lot of bad press that I really don%like and I really don%hike to be called a drug addict.Thank you very much.
for any groups I ask you who you are speaking for and we ask you to speak as quickly as possible because we have
many people here,so well start over here,just raise your hand and come up.Come on up.Raise your right hand MR.TUNIS: Instead of having all the people speak in favor,perhaps-
sir.Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give us is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
CHAIRMAN:No,I said for or against.
RONALD PETERSON: It is.My name is Ronald Peterson.Good evening and thank you.Ibe been a long time
resident of that hamlet of Southold and also a business owner in Mattituck 18 years in business and 35 years in MR.TUNIS: I know perhaps all the people who wish to speak in favor,for the interest of time just to stand up-
residence. I%n one of the local residents within 500 yards of the restaurant.Ion very aware of the problems of
owning a business in this area and how hard it is to stay in business and make a profit with all the regulations of the CHAIRMAN:Well,we in effect are going to do that,but the individual,but this is Southold and I know Mr.Tunis
state and local governments.I%n a farm believer in supporting local businesses including the Elbow East restoration and I don%mean that sarcastically,people are coming to this hearing because they want to speak.Mr.Sullivan.Do
project.This is a family owned business owned and operated by a family who are also longtime residents who had you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
an opportunity to own a business. I know the family who is running the Elbow East,they are a family of high moral
standards,hard work,terrific ethics and professionalism. Aesthetically I feel the proposed building expansion will GEORGE SULLIVAN:I do.My name is George Sullivan.I'm a resident of 275 Midfarm Road in Southold.I
only increase the value of our homes and also improve our quality of life.Thank you. have previously spoken on behalf of the applicants and my comments are part of the public record.I speak only as a
resident of the town as one who has been in business for over 30 years.I was faced with a similar situation when I
CHAIRMAN:Anybody else on the east side of the building,for or against?You act like you're a Trustee or moved my business to an area that was zoned residential but permitted business use.The neighbors were at first
something. resentful as this incursion however I insured that the building and grounds were of the highest standards and in
effect that example increased all the surroundings. Even though I do not have an interest in the property today,I
ARTHUR FORSTER: I know what you are going through here.Remember when it used to be easy? believe the block is the most attractive in the Town of Southold.The neighbors have always complimented me and
have realized that all can benefit with the right intentions.I feel that the applicants have the right intention and their
CHAIRMAN:It's never been easy,but I appreciate that.Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to plan will only add to the quality of life that we enjoy here in Southold.Thank you.
give is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
CHAIRMAN:I'm not stopping anybody on the east side but is there anybody in the back of the room or outside that
MR.FOSTER: I don%want to be redundant. Ron said a lot of things that I was going to say,but I have to just say would like to come in and speak?Okay well go the middle.Anybody in the middle?Do you solemnly swear the
that it amazes me that,maybe I better not get into that.III just say that it is difficult to do business in this town. information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
Times change.That place has been there since the'50's. I was in there when I was old enough to eat and it was a
hot dog stand and it's been a restaurant for a long time.I operated a business in town for 30 years,and it's getting CHUCK LEISTER:I do.My name is Chuck Leister.How do you do?I had no intentions of coming to this
worse by the day,and we have a successful business there.They do a fine job.I think they are an asset to the meeting,but I am here and I am a resident on Leyton Drive,and Ibe been there a long time,and I saw the hot dog
community.They support a lot of events that go on there,events that go on there,events in which money is raised stand and actually,the only thing that I would have a problem with as a resident is the fear as a resident is that with
which is turned back into the community to local charities.I think they are an asset to the community and should be an expansion,correct me if I%n wrong,but I think in Suffolk County bars can stay open until 3:00.Is that true,does
allowed to stay. I'm kind of thankful to lawyers because Igo home at night and read my dictionary. I try to put this anyone know?4:00,okay when I was a kid it was 3:00.I%n worried about that because it sounds like this is a place
in layman terms and make it a little bit more simple so at least I can understand it,I don't know about anybody else. where,great,you can have fun,but at 3 or 4 in the morning,it would get very busy in that very rural little
I don%think there's too many people in here who haven%eaten in there or any one of the restaurants that Cliff started neighborhood,and I wouldn%like that,nor would my family.
that is very famous for his marinated steak and hospitality and just being a part of the community and I think it's
time local government reached out and started helping our local business.You go into Feather-excuse me-you'll CHAIRMAN:Has that been the case with this restaurant?
have your chance in a few minutes.You go into Feather Hill and some of these places are open one day and closed
the next.It's very difficult to do business in here and when you get a business with local people,local residents that MR.LEISTER:No.Because the restaurants that have been there and this restaurant I don%think had a big bar
have put sweat equity into it to make it survive,I just think we have an obligation to support them.The idea of business.Now at 3 or 4 in the morning your dinner is over so whatever is happening,it's different.Thank you.
going into business is to be successful,and ifyou want to be successful you want to try to expand.The idea is not to
stop them from expansion and hold them to the point where they are not snaking any money,you might as well get a CHAIRMAN:Again in the center of the room?Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the
job working for somebody else. You can make$80,000 a year cutting lawns out here. So if there isn%some truth to the best of your knowledge?
incentive to stay in there and fight to try and do things and put your hard sweat and equity,and I personally feel after
having done it for 30 years that it's the local government's obligation to support these local businesses.Now I know WHITNEY BOOTH:My name is Whitney Booth,I'm sort of a neighbor of this place,I live on the opposite comer
these people are-I know this is a classic example of moving in at the other end of the runway and then calling the of that block.I measured it yesterday,it's 7.Ws of a mile by the road as a crow flies,it's a little closer.That doesn%
FAA to change the traffic pattern.I really urge you to take a good look at this and I urge you to approve this mean that we don%have a little offshoot of what goes on because I walk virtually everyday past the restaurant to get
application and give these people a chance to expand.You have children,you have families born and raised here a little exercise. I've seen a very good business going on there.I can%imagine what the hardship there. Gee i see it
and I think that's what small community business and government is supposed to be about.Thank you. from let's say a good business to a crashing business.I kind of envy these fellows already.Ion trying to figure why
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Novel:.___ 2002-Regular Meeting November 14,2002-Regular Meeting
Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
they need this huge obvious investment as well as-it's not just something that's going to happen in a nonconforming
area.I think a lot of people would think twice about doing that.I was a kid,we used to hunt rabbits right through CHAIRMAN:Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your
there,there were no houses between Horton's Point and except for one in through Peconic inlet it was very pleasant knowledge?State your name for the record please.
then but what the heck nothing stays the same. In the 1960's I ran the Traveler.The fellow who ran that place came
to me and said hey the neighbors want to put me out of business.And I said why?And they said I don%know,but ARLENE RICHTMAN:I do. Good long evening Chairman and members of the board.My name is Arlene
they don%like me,and they want to put me out of business.I said that doesn%seem too fair so I got involved in it,I Richtman and hn the president of the Kenny's Beach Civic Association.The owners of Cliffs restaurant have
got quite a bit of flack.He stayed in business as a nonconforming thing you know,he sold pieces a few hot dogs submitted an application to expand this restaurant once before.Nowhere in this revised site plan do I have that is
and hamburgers,couldn%see anything wrong with that.The business got better,there was Larry Mitchell was there, going to indicate what the addition will stand for.All that is shown is footprints.The original plans were to enlarge
Arnold you know it sort of grew as it went along.It's doing fine I have no objection to it now except I do get the waiting the room and enhance the bathrooms.Now the plans are not only to enlarge the restaurant and the bar as
nervous as to what I consider happy hour and I'm walking,and I get a little nervous when the vroom goes by me. well.They want to totally increase the area by 49.6%.Keep in mind that this is a nonconforming building,
But I don%worry too much Ion still pretty lively.My grandchildren I'm a little worried about.They could go over nonconforming use in an R40 district.This restaurant,yes it was a small seasonal shack that catered to the summer
to a place that my brother and I have an interest in and dozens of grandchildren go in and out of that place.They patrons with hamburgers and hot dogs.It certainly expanded over the years and recently the current owners have
have picnics in the evening.All that makes us worried. I'm not talking about legalities.I m talking about quality of turned it into a year-round business where it warn%before.How many times is a variance going to be given to alter
life and what worries us.That's all thank you. and to add on a nonconforming building in a nonconforming use in a R-40 district.There are 43 parking spots noted
on this site plan,how many spots will the wait staff and the kitchen help occupy?To even suggest on the site plan
CHAIRMAN:Yes,sir,in the back?Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the the overflow of commercial parking on Kenny's beach lot as listed under municipal is outrageous.Zoning Board
best of your knowledge? members to permit any addition will spoil the integrity and character of our neighborhood.And the quality of life as
we know it will be destroyed.We the members of the Kenny's Beach Civic Association therefore urge you to deny
ANNETTE MITSCKLEE:My name is Annette Mitscklee and I live on Kenny's Road.My husband and I very this petition.Thank you.
often late at night are on Kenny's Road,and we see people coming from the restaurant,which I guess they are
allowed to do,and very often they go right through the stop sign on Kenny's Road.There have been many times, CHAIRMAN:Thank you.Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of
now not everybody who comes down that road comes from that restaurant where we've had to get off the road fro your knowledge?
fear.I have a 9 year old son who wants to ride his bicycle down there.Pm afraid to let him ride his bicycle down
there.You know,when people sit in a restaurant or a lounge until 2 or 3 in the morning,and then they get out and JOHN KASMATIS:John Kasmatis,I live directly across the street from the restaurant. I've lived with the
there is no public transportation I would like to know how they can get into a vehicle and drive safely and within the restaurant since 1980,and he's been a pretty good neighbor,but we have to differentiate reality from fiction.Fist of
law.That is my concern. It may be a beautiful building,but I'd rather have an ugly building and not have any all the house that learned council said is a million dollars that's being built behind me is a 1200'ranch house on a
danger to my family. slab so if that's a million bucks.The parking area of43 spots overlaps the commercial entrance to the property.If
you going to have deliveries,how can you have 2 parking spots in your delivery area. I don't see a dumpster on the
CHAIRMAN:Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your plan that's been submitted and again,the municipal parking thing that permit parking by Southold Town rules.Last
knowledge? year we discussed the fact that the town of Southold has no cabaret rules so we don%know from the owner if he's
planning live music or juke boxes and we all know from Jhonny's on Rt.48 that sound travels for miles and miles,
CHRIS POPPY:Myname is Chris Poppy. I'd like to just present a petition to you people.I think you have a copy and you know in Mattituck,churches that have parties are being brought into Town Hall about the quality of life and
of it 20 or 30 names- that's what this is all about.I think the restaurant has a fantastic business in fact if he wants a partner,ISn retiring in
14 months,I'd be more than happy to.The trucks back out of the delivery area and of course damage to my property
20-30 residents who live in the area. and adjacent property because they are turning around usually they are big straight jobs and it's kind of hard to turn
around in there. We talk about I agree with Mr.Booth it is a very good business and it's sizable investment in the
MR.POPPY:The second thing I would like to say which I don't think anybody has brought up too much is there's a flood area.The other thing somebody said,it's an asset to the community.Well Nassau County is impressively
public beach about 100'from this restaurant where kids come down there every.I see 3 little boys pulling a raft being re-assessed and if you live anywhere near a school or restaurant or any other commercial business you can
during the summer down the center of Kenny's road heading down to Kenny's beach a car came out of that petition the people that are re-assessing your property to reduce your assessment because it's an adverse impact on
restaurant,spun around the comer,luckily he didn%hit the kids but he came really close.Now you also are going to your home.Thank you.
have the parking in this restaurant according to the Planning Board is barely adequate it's a quarter spot over what he
is supposed to have.The people if they have Southold permits are going to park in the beach parking lot.I watch CHAIRMAN: Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your
the people in the summer go to the restaurant,go out ofthe restaurant,open their trunks take their chairs,and go knowledge?
down to the beach.They leave their after having a couple of drinks,all of Southold is going to be hurt by that.It's
going to be more crowded,there's going to be more people going to the beach.There's going to be more cars PATRICIA POPPY:I do.
leaving and some kid down there is going to get run over and everybody is going to say you shouldn't have allowed
this.The other thing I just have to say quickly,I have nothing against them fixing up the restaurant,my big concern CHAIRMAN:What's your name?
is I know the Planning Board's problem.I read what the Planning Board recommended they said the parking was
barely adequate and they said that they do not recommend variances given to pre-existing buildings in residential MRS.POPPY:Td like to just read a prepared comment.Owners of the Elbow East restaurant have just added
areas,but I just took a couple of pictures-this is what the parking looks like in the summer time.Now how are we satellite TV apparatus,quick draw and lotto.These are 7-11 and tavern type offerings.Family restaurants do not
possibly going to have more,there's no stakes,no room for more cars.You know and more people so they are going usually offer this kind of entertainment.It appears the character of this restaurant is being changed.Businesses are
to go down to our beach down there which the residents of the whole town of Southold come down there and I think important to all residences.They provide service and a tax base and it is a difficult time to nut a business.From my
we're going to have more problems and then the town is going to have to clean up after people down there and I place at the end of a runway where I live,I can see that the lot is very,very crowded.Many business owners are
know they are going to try to cut the budget down there. It's going to be more and more problems in the area. residents of the town as well.However the right to own a business should not impede the rights of those who live in
Thank you. a residential area.That is why we are fortunate to have zoning laws that prevent this from happening.The zoning
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
laws protected this restaurant by allowing it to exist in a residential area.It was a relief.It was respectfully MR.TUNIS: We can guarantee a future.I had Mr.Berlinger,the owner step up and tell us about the establishment.
submitted that the zoning laws should now be interpreted to protect the residents.I do live at the end of the runway, There aren't cabarets and all night drinking tests,and things of that nature. I don%think anyone would say that it has
and Iln not asking the FAA to change the flight patterns I'd like them to stay the way they are.Thank you. happened.But I understand that the neighbors are concerned that in the future it might. Or if the restaurant is ever
sold that the new ownership might take it differently.But as variances run with the land,so do covenants and
CHAIRMAN: Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your restrictions and enforceable,I remember you asked me that question. With code enforcement,back to this board-
knowledge? this board can revoke any relief it grants if there isn't strict adherence and compliance with these conditions with
these restrictions.I think reasonable people can sit down and work out compromises so these types of things do not
DONALD JOHN KIRBY JR:Yes I do. Donald John Kirby Jr.I happen to live absolutely 0'from their house happen to take adequate mitigation. Some of the covenants and restrictions that there should be a discussion about
borders mine.I'd like to say something about children walking down the street.I drive up and down Kennyrs road should speak to hours of operation,black splash lighting,a mature landscaping plan,time restrictions on deliveries
all the time going to and from work. I have to constantly slow down for people,not walking on the side of the road, and things of that nature to insure that it's a sensitive neighbor,but it stays a family type of restaurant and the
walking down the middle of the road,bicycles are required to ride single file to not get in the way of traffic.It restaurant that it has been for many,many years.I think this the Town Board if I can analogize if in its infinite
happens all the time,you have to keep your eyes out for children it's even a bigger concern especially when you're wisdom past legislation that allowed nonconforming uses to expand at a greater rate than 15%,30%if there is
that close to a beach.You have to teach your children to stay out from the middle of the road.It has nothing to do adequate landscaping and that the building is made more aesthically pleasing and that there is no restriction how that
with people coming out of the restaurant,it has to do with traffic in the middle of the street,it has to do with traffic space can be used.But I would suggest and I will conclude is we all wish to beautify the restaurant. We all wish
you're not supposed to walk down the middle of the meet.The other thing I'd like to say is I've never seen any of that it's clapboard and it looks the way it's proposed and with handicap access and bathrooms and lifts and all of that,
the staff or owners at the Elbow Room deny someone the ability to use the telephone to deny someone to call a it will be a much better facility.In the law,it speaks about special circumstances and financial hardships there needs
taxicab.There is public transportation in Southold.It is not free.Transportation anywhere is not free.You can call to be some sort of incentive to give my client an opportunity to invest all those monies and seek bank financing to
a cab at any time whether it be 10:00 at night or 4 in the morning and they will come and get you.Even past that, ensure that they get a rate of return to pay back the bank for giving them the money to beautify this and it's just not
I've seen the staff personally offer people rides home if a cab was not available. I've never seen any other business feasible if there isn't some sort of limited expansion and overall beautification and I think I heard someone say we
do that and take such an interest in the community.Living right next door on the subject of noise. I am literally 60' should interpret these statutes narrowly,let's interpret them fairly.I think everyone will be protected and win out.
out their kitchen door and I have never heard so much as a planking dish,screaming or yelling.Ion right there.Ion Thank you very much.
closer that any other neighbors.I've never heard anything.I hear more noise from children playing at the beach
than I do from the restaurant.I think I make more noise myself than all the patrons in the restaurant combined.It's CHAIRMAN:Thank you.Mr.Patton?
not a concern to me.I can't imagine that people living''/:a mile or 7/10's of mile or a mile and a''/:away ever hear
anything from that restaurant.Traffic always makes noise.I'd much rather live where I do than Main St.in MR.PATTON:I have a question what happens when the prior Planning Board-the Planning Board was a
Greenport.I've never been woken up in the middle of the night by traffic leaving there.The restaurant doesn't open - comment was made at the last Planning Board meeting when they granted a prior extension that the Planning Board
until noon.Early mornings it's not construction in the middle of Manhattan so noise simply is not an issue.Thank was supposed to put bushes around the place.It was never done,did the Planning Board ever address that or you
you. people ever address that?
CHAIRMAN:We are going onto another issue,well be back to you in a couple of minutes.We are now going to CHAIRMAN:We don%address those particular concerns.
go onto Mrs.Moore.Ion concluding this hearing until no later than 10 minutes to 11,okay?Mrs.Moore?
MR.PATTON:I don4 think the Planning Board ever addressed that either.The old owners were supposed to put
MRS.MOORE:No,I think all the things have been stated. bushes in and stuff and it was never done.What Ion concerned about is his attorney talks about who's going to
enforce this they never enforced the prior thing that was supposed to be done.
CHAIRMAN:By the way we are still looking for the sign-in sheet whoever may have it.Stash can you just send it
up? CHAIRMAN:I assure you the Planning Board does a wonderful job with things in reference to things like that.
And they are going to do it this time if anything occurs. Would you raise your right hand.Do you solemnly swear
MR.TUNIS:Mr.Chairman,I appreciate the opportunity to speak again.I don't think that the goals of the applicant the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
and the community are mutually exclusive.Ibe listened to the neighbors here and Ibe found them to be with basis.
I think their comments are well placed.I think they spoke articulately,and I think they spoke with a sincere heart.I CONSTANTINE DRODROPOLIS:My name is Constantine Drodropolis,1330 N.Sea Drive,Southold.My
think they like the fact that they like the fact that there is a restaurant here but good people operate this restaurant understanding of the restaurant business is that the sale of liquor provides the greatest return of profit.I think that
and I think they would like to see renovated and beautified.I think what they are concerned about is you know, needs to be taken into consideration in terms of the expansion of the bar.The floor plan if I remember accurately
does it get much bigger,does it change in nature,does it become more of a nightclub or a bar.And intentional indicates that the lounge will be adjacent to the bar.A very,very,convenient spillover for bar patrons.As Mr.
deleterious impacts that could come with than.It's incumbent to everybody to make sure that doesn%happen that Tunis just indicated,money will have to come from some source to pay for these expansions and I suggest that a
mitigation occurs.There's a 13 year history that Mr.Berlinger spoke about.And the 13 years that he's been there,a great deal of that money will probably come from the sale of liquor.I would also like to call for your attention that
lot of these things that many of the neighbors are concerned about have not happened.They haven%happened. in terms of covenants that run with the land,which I agree with Mr.Tunis are certainly enforceable.He was careful
There's no basis to think that they might happen.I understand their concern,it's incumbent on all of us to try to not to mention covenants that run with the land that would prohibit live music,jukebox music or any other sort of
address that-Mrs.Tortora we had a discussion the last time I was here about conditions and covenants and entertainment that would certainly adversely affect the quality of life in the area.Thank you.
restrictions. I think and I've spoken to Pat Moore who's a tough and worthy adversary but perhaps I can speak again
with her to see about compromises and conditions can be achieved. CHAIRMAN:One more hand on the west side of the room.You spoke before,sir.
MEMBER TORTORA: I was going to ask about that because as we all know the current owners,a variance runs JOHN KASMATIS:Ill try not to be too repetitive.I just have a question.John Kasmatis,I'd like to ask the
with the land,a use variance,and we don%know what's going to happen in the future. Where you are going I like it. question how does the zoning board enforce covenants?
CHAIRMAN:We don't enforce anything,it's done by code enforcement.
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Southold Town Board of Appeals Southold Town Board of Appeals
MR.KASMATIS: If there is no code for what the covenant covers like noise and music and live bands.How is it MR.TUNIS:Certainly.I don'tthink it should be done unilaterally by the applicant.I've asked this board and I
enforced? have discussed it with council and I've asked this board for some guidance on that.I would be happy to have,and I
don't know if it's appropriate,a member of the Town Board,a council of the Town Board,a couple or Ill meet with
MEMBER TORTORA:There are conditions.There are a couple of things that he is discussing.Covenants and all of them if they want,but neighbors-
restrictions and their specific condition. He has just said that he is willing to discuss restrictions,limiting the hours
of operation,limiting the impact to the community.Asa matter of law,this board is required to address that to CHAIRMAN:Just submit whatever you want.You have the best guidance in the world,he has Southold Coucil
listen to him to hear what he has to say,and to enter that into evidence,and I would like him to submit that to us. here that represents the entire members of the association,so how much better guidance could you have.
How that is enforced can either come in the form of a covenant and restriction.It can come in of condition that says
if it's not,any board member can inspect it and if it's not enforced,the CO can be ripped right there. MR.TUNIS:I will submit a written set of proposed covenants and restrictions that will be in format form that
would be the identical covenants and restrictions filed with the county clerk and permanently placed on the deed.
CHAIRMAN:In jeopardy. Those are enforceable by the town attorney,code enforcement and various other bodies.We spoke about noise
ordinances-it's my understanding,my co-council has stated that there are such limitations and legislation passed by
MEMBER TORTORA:So,there are a number of ways that this can occur.We are starting to talk about this now, the County of Suffolk and police have always been very careful,especially in a residential neighborhood,not to
but in fairness to the applicant and fairness to everyone in this room.We should be talking about it. allow an establishment to go unfettered especially if there's a valid complaint on noise.I donk think there has been
one in the past.We don't anticipate there will be but,Mr.Chairman I would be happy to sit down with council,well
MR.KASMATIS:I agree,but my question is if there is a noise violation,or on a Saturday night when all officials come up with some proposed covenants and restrictions,and Ill submit them in writing.I donl hear a lot of these
of any town are not available,can somebody call the police in the town of Southold and say issue a noise summons? covenants and restrictions that would go a long way to addressing or mitigating these potential harmful deleterious
impacts these neighbors are stating might occur in the future.It's not our intention.It's not our intention to change
CHAIRMAN:No.We don't have a noise ordinance. what we are.Reasonable restrictions are prudent,proper and we will certainly be providing that and any guidance
this board will give to that I think will be very helpful.
MEMBER TORTORA:But you don't have that for your neighbors either.If your neighbors are playing music at
1:00 in the morning,you do the same thing I do,you call the police and you say hello,it's waking me up,but there is MEMBER TORTORA:If you were to bring something before the board,I would be interested in hours of
no noise ordinance.So there are certain things we can restrict and certain things that we can look at.But I think we operation to prevent it from being a 24 hour.
all should look at those things right now and put them on the table.
MR.TUNIS:Certainly,I think we have no intention of staying until 4,3,or even 2.The type of business that we
CHAIRMAN: I don't want you to leave thinking that we enforce anything,we don't enforce it. We write it,and it's have now and in the future does not necessitate it.It's never been done.The bar crowd are people who have had
enforced by somebody else. dinner and who go the lounge with their parties and have an after dinner drink,and go home.That is the type of late
night business that exists.
MR.KASMATIS:You answered my question,thank you.
CHAIRMAN:Remember we are concluding very shortly here.
CHAIRMAN:John Nickles,Jr.Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the
best of your knowledge? MR.TUNIS: We are happy to provide hours of operation,Ill discuss it with council and-
JOHN NICKLES,JR:Yes it do.John Nickles,Jr.of Southold.I represent the Southold Business Alliance. I'd like MEMBER TORTORA:Will you also include-
to commend the Southold Town Board of Appeals on the job they are doing,unfortunately I think that our town
code has made just about everything nonconforming to it's current use.That's a common thing that we find on MR.TUNIS: Ill discuss it with my client,well take a very reasonable position on this.
business properties,and when you look at both schedules and setbacks,you can find other nonconfornities.
MEMBER TORTORA:If there is a meeting ground,we can find it.
CHAIRMAN:That's why we are so busy,John.
MR.TUNIS: I will do so,thank you.
MR.NICKLES:That's why I'm giving you some credit.The people here that live in the neighborhood,their
concerns are valid.I think the track record of this restaurant speaks for itself,and I think that that should be trusted. CHAIRMAN:This is my suggestion to the board,I am still letting you speak sir,so hold on.We are going to
I think these people are reasonable and they understand the concerns of this community.And if they are willing to conclude this hearing to no more further verbatim testimony,okay.We are asking you to submit those conditions by
talk about covenants and restrictions that run with the land,and in the event that these people are not he owners Dec.5t°if you would.We will then close the hearing as a matter of right on Dec.12.And the record will still
anymore,and it would restrict the type of activities that are of concern then 1 think that there isn't a whole lot here to remain open for anybody who would like to submit a letter to this board. Who either has not spoken tonight or
hold back this renovation. I'd just like to say that I give it my support and as the president of the Southold Business because of this meeting has thought of something that they maybe slept on.Whatever the case maybe.I just want
Alliance I think that my board of directors whom I had a meeting with this evening also agree.Thank you. to have one discussion,Mr.Berlinger before we leave.Could I just ask you to step up to the mike one more time,
Mr.Berlinger?Mr.Berlinger,I've known you for a long time. I in fact went to school with you.You are a little
CHAIRMAN:Mr.Tunis can I ask you a question,sir? younger than I am.I've known you to be a very upstanding individual.We were in the same school.Anything Mr.
Tunis has said tonight regarding your restaurant is the truth,is it not?In other words,you are not changing
MR.TUNIS:Yes,sir. anything,there's anything but a facelift in this and an increase of the restaurant.
CHAIRMAN:In light of the hour,is there any submission that you would like to come forward with regarding MR.BERLINGER:That's right.I can hardly keep my eyes open right now,we have no intentions of keeping the
those particular conditions that you are alluding to before? restaurant open until 2 or 3 in the morning.
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Southold Town Board of Appeals
CHAIRMAN:Everything he has said tonight is absolutely correct?
MR.BERLINGER:Yes.
CHAIRMAN: I'm not questioning anything he said,Pin just wanted you to affirm that.
MR.BERLINGER:You have my word.
CHAIRMAN:This will be the final speaker,by the way.Can you state your name for the record?
MONTE SONOMBORN: Monte Sonombom.
CHAIRMAN:Do you solemnly swear the information you are about to give is the truth to the best of your
knowledge?
MR.SONOMBORN:Yes.I guess really it's a series of questions. I have a home diagonally across from the
restaurant,and what strikes me is the restaurant has already expanded dramatically.There is a bar crowd. We hear
it in the summer. In terms of economic liability,I don't know how a bank would finance an expansion unless the
restaurant weren't already fairly successful.What troubles me,this is not an anti-business issue,but it's an issue of
trying to preserve what is a residential neighborhood and I think that's really the issue that I would ask you to
consider.
CHAIRMAN: Ma'am I've said this is the final testimony,can I ask you please to reduce it to writing because of the
hour. I thank you for your courtesy,I thank everybody for everybody's courtesy tonight.This was an extremely
courteous hearing tonight.I wish you safe home,and a happy holiday.I make a motion closing the hearing to
verbatim testimony and recessing the hearing.
End of hearing.
Prepared by Jessica Boger from tape recordings.