HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-02/03/2005 Hearing 1
2 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK STATE OF NEW YORK
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5 T 0 W N O F S 0 U T H 0 L D
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7 Z 0 N I N G B 0 A R D O F A P P E A L S
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9. S P E C I A L M E E T I N G
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Southold Town Hall
11 530.95 Main Road
Southold, New York
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February 3 , 2005
13 9 : 30 a.m.
14 Board Members Present
15 RUTH OLIVA, Chairwoman
16 VINCENT ORLANDO, Vice Chairman
.17 MICHAEL SIMON, Board Member
18 JAMES DINIZIO, Board Member
19 LINDA KOWALSKI, Board Secretary
20 Absent : Gerard Goehringer, Board Member
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" .23 ORIGINA '
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COURT REPORTING AND TRANSCRIPTION SERVICE (631) 878-8047
;ORIENT FIRE DISTRICT ZB'S408 2
1 PUBLIHEARYNGscontinued! �s
2 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: We are here so we can
hear some technical testimony from Mr. Scheibel
3 and Mr. Turner. I would appreciate that any
comments that are going to be made tonight are
4 only on the technical aspects only. We have heard
from most of you and we really appreciate your
5 comments and we will take everything into
consideration.
6' Tonight the Board has to hear the
technical merits on each side . Mr. Scheibel would
7 you like to start tonight?
MR. BOYD: I want to provide the Board
8 with several studies that have been done by Mr.
Scheibel back in March, 2004 . This was a study
9 that was presented and available at a meeting that
we had at the Orient firehouse . And we had a more
10 recent one, which really just brings that one a
little bit up to date .
11 Mr. Scheibel, maybe you can take a moment
to give your qualifications to this Board.
12 MR. SCHEIBEL: I have a slide for you.
MR. BOYD: We will let the slide do the
13 talking.
MR. SCHEIBEL: I'm Bill Scheibel, I own
14 Eastern Long Island Electronics . We' re located in
Quogue . We' re a full line Motorola
15 dealership. That' s not just selling radios . The
difference is that yes, of course, anyone who is
16 in business to sell something wants to make money,
but also we' re what' s called a national MSS, which
17 means we' re authorized by Motorola to carry the
Motorola logo on my card, my ID, my stationery,
18 because Motorola empowers me to represent them. I
go to all the specialized training, I have all the
19 proper test equipment, all the proper software
packages, everything I need to be able to do
20 design maintenance installation for communications
systems, as per Motorola' s guidelines, I'm also a
21 Kenwood dealer, a Midland and an Exxon dealer. So
with anything today, you go into car dealers, you
22 don' t just have one car, you have many cars, well,
I have a lot of radios . This is all we do.
23 Part of my contract with Motorola is I'm
maintaining E9-11 for all the east end towns, so
24 when you pick up the phone out here, and you dial
E9-11, you' re using a system that I maintain for
25 Motorola. It gives you an idea of our technical
ability and our credentials, I hope .
February 3 , 2005
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2 Some of our clients are Southold Police
Department, Southampton Police, East Hampton
3 Police, Riverhead, the sheriff' s and others
further to the west, which are probably of no
4 consequence to us here . I am their radio company.
Fire departments, some you may recognize, some you
5 don' t, they span all the way from west of Exit 62
on the expressway, all the way to the far reaches
6 of the forks . When these fire departments need
communication systems, I'm the person who does the
7 work. Whether it' s EMS, whether it' s Riverhead,
Southampton, Flanders, all departments all run
8 individual ambulance, private ambulance company,
I 'm also their radio company. This will give you
9 some idea of where my background comes from and
the work I do. This is what I do, this is all I
10 do.
When the fire department spoke to me, and
11 where they got my name -- probably from another
fire department would make sense -- they asked me
12 to take a look at what I could do to improve their
overall communications . They had dispatch
13 problems, they had problems in scene management,
there were fire safety issues, fire-ground
14 operations . As we move through the presentation,
I'm trying to explain what some of those things
15 mean, so more than just words . Part of my
training and the organizations I belong to is not
16 just with Motorola, which is the technical side of
what has to be accomplished, but I'm also a member
17 of the NFPA, which is the National Fire Protection
Association. I am also a New York State certified
18 incident commander, which means that I know how to
go to a scene and manage communications based on
19 New York State standards . So it' s not just my
technical background speaking, but in terms of how
20 to improve. the overall communications, I call upon
the other things I've done, the training I have,
21 the other background I have .
Additionally, the fire department asked me
22 to look at mutual aid, which is where our fire
department has to assist another department . In
23 this day and age in a volunteer-based
organization, there aren' t enough resources to
24 combat every evil that a fire department is
presented with. So there' s a thing called mutual
25 aid, so you can be called in by an adjoining
department to assist you or call adjoining
February 3 , 2005
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2 departments to assist you. Additionally, there' s
the fundamental resource called paging, which is
3 what the system is used for to get the fireman
alerted to the fact that his services are
4 required, so we took a look at all that .
So what were the goals? What I ' d like to
5 do is kind of have everybody through the course of
this get a better understanding of fire
6 communications . This is not just pick up a
two-way radio and talk to somebody at the other
7 end. This is not what we do with our very handy
cell phones . This is more of a communication
8 system, and what the fire department would do is
find out what' s available and how to make better
9 use of it to support the mission of fighting fires
and running ambulance calls, because obviously
10 across the years we've seen technology change a
lot whether it' s our VCR in our home or whatever
11 it is, we' re not doing things the same way we did
them 10 years ago. Ten years ago there was no
12 such thing as an I-Pod for instance . Those same
technologies all come to play when it comes to
13 public safety. What they asked me to do is use
those technologies to try to solve the
14 communications issues they had, but obviously they
wanted to keep their costs contained. There' s a
15 lot of ways to design systems . We know that from
computer systems . You have heard of super
16 computers that can process millions and millions
of instructions per second, then we have the
17 desktop computer in our home or my laptop over
there, they can both add,. subtract, multiply and
18 divide . Do I need a crazy super computer to add,
subtract, multiply and divide? Well, obviously
19 no. My laptop is very effective and of course
costs a fraction of that . So one of the things
20 the department asked me to look at was also to
keep the cost contained in terms of what I was
21 going to deliver to them in terms of a solution.
The current situation, and this was done
22 over an amount of time where I actually monitored
their fire communication, I have several
23 monitoring stations around Long Island, I have
access to those sites where I can listen to the
24 things that -go on. Even if I'm not located at
that particular geography. There were missed
25 calls, there were definitely fireman safety issues
where a fireman' s communication was not heard.
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2 Obviously in terms of fire safety, a missed call,
any missed call is a problem because that fireman,
3 that radio, that chief who needs to get in contact
with someone who can provide him resources is
4 paramount to him being able to manage that fire
scene and to those people' s safety. So any missed
5 call is a problem. It' s not a matter of it almost
got through. Almost isn' t good enough. That' s
6 what fire safety is all about .
For fire-ground, is what we refer to as one
7 radio having to reach another one at the fire
scene . Fire-ground is what' s referred to as the
8 senior managing. There can be multiple
fire-ground scenes within the geography at the
9 same time . Poor fire-ground means that a fireman
on the back of the building who' s been charged
10 with a rear attack, can' t reach the chief who gave
him that responsibility. So the chief is sitting
11 out in front of the fire scene, he' s trying to
speak with that person in the back who' s in rear
12 attack and they cannot communicate effectively
with each other, and we' ll get into the reasoning
13 why that' s come to be . Difficult long range
communications, if there' s a chief on scene -- I'm
14 trying to draw a picture of why we do this the way
we dd -- when you have got a volunteer fire
15 department and you have multiple chiefs and
potentially multiple scenes at the same time, you
16 need a way to effectively communicate with that
chief who has other resources at another scene
17 that you may need. Or you may need to consult
with him because the scene you' re on has now
18 become a haz-mat scene, and you' re not the haz-mat
trained guy. The haz-mat chief is on the other
19 side of town. You need to be quickly able to
interact and get information from him in order for
20 you to effectively get your job done, which once
again, the fundamentalal job is to put out the
21 fire . With the amount of resources you need to do
that in a volunteer-based fire department, they' re
22 not readily available and communication' s
paramount to getting your hands on those resources
23 in real time, and that' s why real time
communication is so important . That' s what we
24 mean by effective long range, who is currently on
mutual aid to the next town over that the chief on
25 scene and that chief can talk to each other the
same way we do on a cell phone, with that
February 3 , 2005
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2 immediate response of pushing the talk button and
speaking to that other person who has those other
3 resources .
The biggest issue we had to look at was
4 the platform for improvement really wasn' t there .
The low band system that' s in use today, which is
5 the simplex radio system, which means that you' re
not using any wide area available machine to talk
6 on, you' re strictly relying on the antennae
available to the radio, and the power the radio
7 makes to reach from radio to radio. Whether that
radio' s cross town, whether that radio' s next to
8 each other, the only thing you can do in the
existing platform or low band is to use what the
9 FCC allows you to, which is that small amount of
tower, that small antennae and the 30 watts that
10 they license off the firehouse to talk on. And
we' ll get to why that' s important as we move on.
11 Bottom line is that system' s outdated. It' s not
that this is a unique problem to Orient Fire
12 District . This is a problem that every fire
district nationwide faces . It was a problem faced
13 at 9/11 . You've got to have a reliable
communications system that gets you to talk
14 reliably from radio to radio on demand, and if you
don' t have that, people can potentially lose their
15 lives . That' s what this is all about . The
existing system that' s in place, with low band
16 simplex technology cannot reliably do that . As we
move on you' ll see how the studies prove that out .
17 There' s a real fancy computer program that
I own, that Motorola insists that I do, that you
18 put all this information into, and it can plot for
you how the radio system performs . Now, to try
19 and give you all the arithmatic how that system
works, I 'm probably not qualified to do that . It
20 would probably require like a Ph.D. in
mathematics, but I understand how radio works so I
21 know how to use the program. The simple
explanation on what the plot tells you is let' s
22 start with the wording first, "talk out" means
from where you want to talk out to the person you
23 want to reach, that' s called talk out . If the
person at the fire department pushes down at the
24 microphone at the dispatch center, how well does
the person out in the fields hear him, that' s- talk
25 out . Talk out on the low band system was never a
problem. It works pretty well, are there
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2 interference issues, yes, we' ll get to that later.
Talk out, as you can see from the diagram, green
3 depicts okay, green is good, red is bad. In this
scenario, actually, green is not as good as red.
4 Red indicates hot, very hot, there' s a lot of
radio energy for that radio to hear so the
5 signal' s very clear. Green is still good. As you
move more towards blue, then navy blue and darker,
6 means there' s less energy, means the radio stops
hearing. As you can see from the map, the talk
7 out energy on low band was never really an issue,
you can hear someone from the dispatch center just
8 fine all the way out past Plum Island.
Low band talk in, however, is a completely
9 different story. Talk in from a mobile radio in
the chief' s car back to the dispatch center was
10 significantly impaired. You can see where there' s
blue areas and dark blue areas right within the
11 fire district . Now, how many of them are there?
Doesn' t look all that bad, does it? But that' s
12 from a mobile radio which your chief has had in
his car, not from the chief standing at the fire
13 scene or from the guy at back in rear attack
trying to talk to the dispatcher. Now, let' s look
14 at low band.
As represented from unit to unit, I
15 couldn' t plot it because it' s that bad. The whole
chart is blue . Because low band fundamentally one
16 in a simplex connection from radio to radio
doesn' t work that well . You don' t have any
17 height, you don' t have any power, you have
whatever energy' s in that battery and that little
18 rubber antennae . There' s no back stage
infrastructure to help you complete that
19 communication. Also, there' s an interference
issue, and we' ll get to what causes those .
20 There' s a legacy of issues associated with
low band communications . For one thing it' s
21 what' s called a no tone system, and this problem' s
been around since its inception but there' s
22 nothing anyone' s willing to do about it because
the system' s already in place . But the radios
23 have to work in a mode which is called carrier
squelch, which means there' s no signal to block
24 anything in the radio. They leave the radio
intentionally wide open so it can hear as best it
25 can. The down side to that is that every manmade
piece of interference out there also can open the
February 3 , 2005
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2 radio. So those pieces of interference which can
be anything from Nextel telephones to personal
3 computers, microwave ovens all emit energy in the
low band space where the radios are today.
4 Because those radios operate and carry a squelch,
it' s not unusual -- any fireman can tell you
5 this -- he' ll be walking down the street and his
pager is squawking away. It' s not a fire call,
6 it' s a leaking microwave oven two houses away.
That' s the reality of low band. That' s the
7 reality of a technology that is done . The
demonstration of that is that there' s lack of
8 manufacturers for it . Most of the manufacturers
have dropped low band equipment from their product
9 line completely. It' s not there anymore . Why?
Because there' s a limited market for it . There' s
10 a realization that as a technology this .isn' t
going anywhere . We gotta go someplace else, we
11 have to do other things . And since there are
better technology, because obviously people
12 haven' t been sitting around doing nothing with
technology for the past 20 years, there are other
13 solutions . The other thing you have to deal with
similarly, paging difficulties . The pagers
14 themselves that are manufactured on low band have
been re-engineered to try to deal with the fact
15 that all this interference is around us . On one
hand that' s a good thing because it' s less likely
16 for the pager to fault . The other side it' s a bad
thing because now it' s more likely the pager won' t
17 hear what it' s supposed to hear. And a simple
example I can give you, any fireman can tell you
18 this too, if you put your low band pager and your
Nextel on the same side of your ,belt, two guys can
19 be standing in the same room, one pager will go
off the other pager won' t . Move the Nextel to the
20 other side, the pager mysteriously starts working
again. Why is that? The FCC let that happen
21 because with this onslaught of technology and the
decreased value of our dollar, the FCC decided
22 that it was a better idea to let everybody
self-regulate . So we' ll create this set of rules
23 where everybody gets to generate interference and
we' ll leave it up to the person that wears that
24 thing to mitigate interference . And any
electronic device you buy today goes with that
25 little statement stamped in the front of the
owner' s brochure, it' s called Part 15 . If you
February 3 , 2005
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2 read a brochure on anything you have laying around
your house, your DVD player, it says if you cause
3 interference, it' s your problem not the device' s
problem. You have the ultimate responsibility to
4 unplug it . Of course, that makes it really hard
to watch the DVD. But that' s what we' re dealing
5 with today.
The story I ' ll tell you is that for a week
6 and a half, Southampton had a problem with one of
the ambulance companies . Their channel wasn' t
7 available for use because there was always
something on it . It was like a whirring sound.
8 And we spent about a week with radio direction
equipments trying to track it down, and that
9 whirring sound turned out to be the motor in a
person' s DVD player holding their ambulance
10 channel open. To show you in the real world that
this happens, I mean, you could drum your fingers
11 on top of that DVD player and it will run all over
the ambulance channel in Southampton. This is the
12 reality of the age we live in.
There' s also recourse -- well, somebody
13 else will fix it . There' s this thing called 800 ,
that' s another band, just like low band, 800
14 megahertz is where the county built their radio
system back when there were frequencies
15 available . Some of what the county and the local
fire departments do today, they do 800 megahertz,
16 there are radios there where they can talk to
county control, where they can talk to bedcom, but
17 the scope of that system is limited and the
coverage of it is limited, and they' re not going
18 to allow local fire departments to add their
traffic to an already burdened system. That' s
19 another factor.
There' s a new kind of system coming, well,
20 that' s a great possibility, the last county system
cost I think someplace upwards of 20 million
21 dollars . Yes, potentially there is going to be
another county system coming, but today, there' s
22 no frequency to put the county system on because
they' re all currently held by television stations
23 which have not yet had to relinquish them because
of FCC rules . And of course, there' s the issue of
24 funding because to build an 800 trunking system
that all the fire departments could use would cost
25 in excess of 20 million dollars, conservatively
speaking.
February 3 , 2005
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2 So what do we have for options? Well, we
could leave it alone . Something tells me that
3 that' s not what the fire department wanted because
when you get into life safety issues and firemen
4 safety issues and effective communications to help
the people that own homes that are potentially
5 going to have a fire, leaving it alone doesn' t
sound like a reasonable solution. You can wait
6 for someone else to do it . And we talked about
that already, there potentially will be some huge
7 wide area system like there is for Suffolk County
Police Department who all cohesively work on one
8 radio system, and any policeman in Suffolk County
could call any other policeman. Had that police
9 level system that cost upwards of 20 million
dollars been rolled out to police departments on
10 eastern Long Island? ,No. They all still have
their independent radio systems just as the fire
11 service will . There' s also the issue of funding.
A system of that magnitude costs 20 million
12 dollars, I wonder where that 20 million dollars is
going to come from, and that was actually in
13 1980 ' s dollars, I don' t know what it would be in
2000 ' s dollars .
14 We could shore up the low band system,
okay, let' s talk about that for a minute . What
15 problems did we see with the low band system?
Talk out was pretty good, talk back in from a
16 mobile was pretty good, so what is it that we' re
going to do to impact those other factors that
17 affect the very fact that low band is ineffective?
We can' t stop interference, in fact, it' s only
18 going to go up. There' s no doubt about that .
There are people in this room that don' t
19 yet own DVD players that will before the end of
this year. There' s people that don' t own the next
20 plasma television or whatever it is, and the more
consumer electronics we buy that all classify as
21 part of the FCC rules, the more likely it is there
will be more interference .
22 How do we stop the interference from one
low band user to another low band user? The way
23 the low band system was designed is each fire
division, not a district . A town is a fire
24 district; a fire division is a group of towns,
share one low band channel because that' s all
25 there was, that' s all there is, that' s all the FCC
licensed. So if Southold, Mattituck, East Marion
February 3 , 2005
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2 and Orient and Cutchogue all have a fire scene at
the same time, they' re all trying to use the same
3 channel . Let' s see how effective that is . Having
stood at the wild fires on Sunrise Highway and
4 watched pine trees go up like toothpicks soaked in
gasoline, I can tell you that more than one
5 department on one channel doesn' t work very well .
And that is low band and that' s not changing.
6 What we can do though is move someplace else where
you have your own channel, where you don' t have to
7 share with anybody, and you get to bring people by
invitation to your party. So when you have a
8 mutual aid situation, you can say here' s our
channel to use, click it on your radio. That' s
9 where this is going, that' s where it' s gone, many
departments have this already. There are
10 departments in divisions where they have already
set up specific mutual aid frequency and what' s
11 called protocols, which is how you use the
resources that you have to fight a fire, effective
12 communications when you' re mutualing with another
department . That' s how it' s done now. The
13 combination of all that is where I think we need
to go. Low band paging certainly isn' t going to
14 go anywhere for a while . So some shoring up has
to happen.
15 Yes, there is an issue of the age of some
of the equipment in the Orient Fire
16 Department . Like any organization, you do have to
take a look at what is the expected lifespan of a
17 piece of equipment . I mean, how long does your
VCR last? How long does your personal computer
18 last? Why would you think that a piece of
electronic equipment like a radio, which is
19 designed with much of the same components, with
much of the same engineering standard is going to
20 last any different? They don' t . But the object
of the interference, adjacent channel and
21 co-channel from other districts, interference from
within your own fire division, there' s nothing we
22 can do in terms of fixing that except move .
That' s what fix is, that' s why everyone' s doing
23 it . This isn' t a problem just Orient has . We
just finished doing Mattituck. Riverhead' s
24 already gone . Jamesport' s already gone . It' s not
like we' re doing this just for Orient because it' s
25 a fun thing to do . We' re doing this because it
needs to be done and they asked me to look at it,
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2 and that' s how we got to where we are today.
So what' s involved in doing that? You
3 have to take a new approach and design a system to
deal with as best you can within what' s reasonable
4 all those problems we covered in the previous
slides . The simplest thing to do is a high band
5 repeater which is that move to UHF frequency.
What a repeater does is takes the very weak signal
6 that it hears from its antennae and amplifies it a
thousand times and sends it out again in real
7 time . It' s concurrent, it' s not like there' s a
delay for that to happen. That' s what makes the
8 repeater such an interesting device, because it' s
actually doing two things at once . It' s listening
9 and it' s talking; that' s why it actually takes two
frequencies to build a repeater not one . But now
10 I 'm going down a road of technical jargon that no
one needs to hear about .
11 What does it mean to the fire department?
What it means is that that small radio now, and
12 face it no one wants to carry a radio very large
now, the technology' s there to be more effective
13 and have it on you and not have it weigh 42 pounds
like the original radios did -- that small radio
14 with its small antennae now instead of trying to
talk radio to radio, talks to that large antennae
15 where with that very hot receiver and that really
strong amplifier, so those other radios can all
16 hear what it says . That' s the fundamental
principal of how a repeater works . We also need
17 to embrace a fire-ground channel where there isn' t
any interference. As you move up in frequency,
18 the probability of interference is lower, so we
,also have the FCC grant, and the FCC application' s
19 already in and approved, and we have these
channels at our disposal to talk directly from
20 radio to radio. So now a chief on the scene with
a rotation of his channel selector can talk in a
21 bunch of different places without ever having to
run back to his truck without having to wonder
22 what he' s doing. It says right on his radio, I 'm
on the fire-ground channel, so if I need to talk
23 to the attack guy, I go to the attack channel . If
I need to get more resources out here, now I can
24 go to the dispatch channel and get more resources .
I can talk to that chief who' s one mutual aid over
25 and find out do I need haz-mat support here
because he' s the one that has that answer, he' s
February 3 , 2005
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2 seven miles away, now I can talk to him. I
couldn' t do that before .
3 The console and the paging system are nice
to have . Would it be great to be able to mingle
4 all those channels on one piece of equipment so
it' s easy to train the fireman getting to the
5 house as the first guy to be the dispatcher,
because that' s how the volunteer fire service
6 works . A lot of volunteer fire departments don' t
have full time paid dispatchers . So what you try
7 to do is make the piece of equipment they have to
look at be as simple as possible and there' s ways
8 to do that . But that' s more of a longer term goal
than a shorter term goal of fixing the fact that
9 people can' t talk to each other.
The paging system, once you put a new high
10 band system in, and you have a better dispatch
console, we can effectively change the dispatch
11 system to either be more effective the way it
exists by putting a control station for high band
12 at the PD dispatch center and moving everybody to
high band or revisit via the new console
13 technology how we generate a more effective page
with the existing low band pager that everybody
14 has . We have to do this in stages, to try to do
this all at once, it' s like you' re going to try to
15 build a race car overnight with bushel baskets
full of parts, you can' t do that . You have to
16 break it into chunks, do what' s important first,
and important to the fire department, their
17 priority was get us a better coverage, get us
better fire-ground communicationss . So that' s how
18 we went after it .
The bottom line is when you get done you
19 have a systems-wide communication approach.
Something that works with those other mutual aid
20 departments that you need to talk to that are
already on their way to doing this . But you have
21 to have a place to put it . That repeater doesn' t
work very well if the antennae is at eye level .
22 Why is that?
There are some very simple facts of radio.
23 Radio communications are basically line of sight .
FM communications are the type of communications
24 that you can buy and wear on your belt . The
simple explanation of that is if I can' t shine a
25 flashlight or laser point at the other guy I 'm
talking to, if he can' t see my light, I can' t talk
February 3 , 2005
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2 to him. That' s the simplest explanation. So if I
have a chief on the East Marion/Orient borderline,
3 I have another guy out at the ferry, can they see
each other' s laser pointer? No, of course not .
4 But if the antennae that represents the repeater
is some number of feet in the air and I 'm sitting
5 on top of that structure and I have two laser
pointers, can I shine a laser pointer at each of
6 the people I'm talking to? Of course I can.
That' s the basic principle upon which the repeater
7 system and the line of sight radio communication
is effective . If the two laser pointers can see
8 each other, the repeater can take what this laser
pointer sees and feed it over to the other guy.
9 But if you can' t, if there' s no path to create
that, you don' t have effective communications .
10 Now, I'm giving you the simplisitic cartoon
version to keep it simple . Obviously there' s a
11 lot of arithmatic behind this . There' s a lot of
parameters you can set to -- well, how many times
12 do I want the laser point to be able to clearly
see everybody; are there leaves on the trees; is
13 there a car going by; is there a building in the
way? That all effects how the communications is
14 affected. But what makes the difference is where
you put the antennae and the parameters under
15 which you operate the radio system, that' s how you
get the maps . Height is might . We covered that,
16 right? The higher you go the further the laser
pointers can see . You' re building an umbrella.
17 Think of the edges of an umbrella are reaching out
to the places you want to talk. Everybody within
18 that umbrella can now talk to each other, so
obviously the higher you put that point the more
19 effective it' s going to work. But there' s
arrangement to that . Does Orient Point need to
20 talk to Selden? No. Does Orient Point need to
talk to East Marion? Yes, probably. That' s why
21 we build things the way we do. That' s why the
computer program tells us what we have to do .
22 There are also some fundamental rules :
You can' t talk through dirt . Get back to the
23 laser pointer. One of the worst insulators to FM
radio, line of sight radio is dirt . You can' t
24 talk through dirt, that' s why where do you see
most antennaes for big TV stations, radio
25 stations? You drive down the expressway there' s
one in Hauppauge, you drive down Sunrise Highway,
February 3 , 2005
15
1
2 there' s a big one in Manorville, that' s because .
they want their antennae on the dirt, so they find
3 the highest pile of dirt on Long Island and they
put the antennae on the dirt pile . But once
4 again, that' s if you got somebody who wants to
talk, like the county, who wants to talk back to
5 Bay Shore from Amityville to Yaphank. You need
that coverage, but if you want to talk from East
6 Marion to Orient or Orient to an adjoining
district, you don' t need to be on Manorville, you
7 don' t need to be on a dirt pile that' s 350 feet .
You need what works . No one wants to carry a
8 radio much bigger than their wallet, that' s just a
fact of life . That' s the society we live in
9 today. No one wants to carry a four pound brick
on their belt, especially in a fire scene in their
10 turnout gear. So we' re all trying to deal with
what' s reasonable technology. Can we get radios
11 the size of a pack of cigarettes? Sure we
can. Can we get radios that do everything from
12 tell me where the fireman is to talk to me when I
change the channel? Sure you can, they' re $5, 000
13 each. Do some fire departments buy them? Yes,
they do. Is that a requirement of the type of
14 system that I was asked to put in place by Orient
Fire Department? No, it' s not . But something
15 about the size of a wallet that fit on your belt
was reasonable . So that' s the direction we took.
16 You also have to remember that interference is a
necessary evil, you can' t escape it . No matter
17 what you do there' s interference; what you want to
try to do is mitigate it . So the system you
18 design has to deal with whatever interference is
going to be presented to the users of the radio .
19 So what benefits do you get when you
actually put a system like this together? First
20 of all your coverage problem going across the
district .is solved because now anyone within the
21 district can talk to anyone else within the
district strictly by picking the radio up and
22 keying it up. With the reliability as the
department asked me to design of 90 percent, which
23 is pretty much the Motorola standards, any radio
system, no matter how much resources you pump into
24 it, is not one hundred percent . Simplest example
I can give you is the cell phone . Millons and
25 millions of dollars are spent on the cell phone
infrastructure, but you still can' t, even in a
February 3 , 2005
16
1
2 highly populated area like Manhattan, walk down
the street and expect the cell phone to have
3 coverage from one end of the town to the other
without losing it because money just doesn' t
4 matter sometimes . You have the general rules of
communications you can' t escape . You can' t talk
5 through dirt, you can' t talk through a certain
amount of concrete . I'm working for a job in the
6 Suffolk County jail right now where even though
the repeater system is within five line of sight
7 miles of the jail, two radios inside the jail
can' t talk to each other because two feet of
8 reenforced concrete is really hard to talk
through; that' s the reality. But with the system
9 we put together, we did it as best we could with
what we had to work with to get them the 90
10 percent coverage they asked for. How many
occasions are there to talk through two feet of
11 concrete in Orient fire district? Not many, we
aren' t built for that .
12 There are other things a newer radio
system can do, obvious, because as technology
13 changes, with it comes features and functionality
that you didn' t have before, like what' s getting
14 to be very important is a man down system, which
means that a fireman in. trouble only has to fall
15 over, is one example, or hit an emergency button
on his radio, and he activates a beacon that tells
16 the fire chief on the scene or the dispatch center
that radio number VC44 is. in trouble . So if
17 you' re in a situation where you can' t find another
firefighter, you've fallen through to a basement
18 of the building, that button can save your life .
The system we are talking about implementing is
19 capable of doing that . The system you have now
can' t even dream about it . It' s not doable, not
20 just from the fact that the functionality doesn' t
exist in the radio, but if you have coverage
21 problems where you can' t talk from one radio to
the chief' s car, how can you expect the emergency
22 beacon to get through? You can' t .
The other thing it solves is it eliminates
23 the crowding. Because as more and more fire
departments move towards doing this, we talked
24 before about there' s mutual aid plan in place and
what' s called by the FCC a memorandum of
25 , understanding where departments can -- the
equivalent of licensing the channels so when they
February. 3 , 2005
17
1
2 go from one department to another now to work with
that department is a click on that radio, now
3 they' re using that radio' s resources for that
department' s system, can' t do that today. Bottom
4 line is, you end up with a reliable communication
system, and that' s what this is all about .
5 So what does it actually look like? This
is the high band talk in coverage . Now that we
6 have a lot of green, very little light blue, that
map looks familiar to everybody, you recognize
7 what we' re looking at, right? Talk out, more
effective, that' s not unusual in a radio system.
8 The FCC when they license you, they run something
called contour maps . What they want you to be
9 able to do is push as much RF down into your area
as you can so you get things like basement
10 coverage . Typically they say it' s more of an
alligator because it' s loud and it pushes a lot of
11 energy downwards and into its district . So if you
do fall through a floor, that radio has the
12 ability to be heard and penetrate . Listening you
try to balance your system, try to get as much
13 coverage listening as you can talking but there' s
solutions to that, you can actually add more
14 receivers, you can do things, and I think actually
Mr. Turner had mentioned that earlier on. We
15 should put more receivers in, that' s true, high
band systems sometimes what you end up doing, if
16 you find a coverage hole, what you do is you add a
receiver so you can take more inbound information
17 and feed it to the repeater instead of just using
the singular repeater antennae itself . But talk
18 out is typically accomplished with a singular
antennae, and that' s what this depicts .
19 Another thing we need and has been found,
and I think Chief Cochran was in here one night
20 and mentioned it, there' s an lack of inbound
portable coverage on the police department system.
21 One of the things we were going to do at the same
time we did the Orient system was collocate on
22 that same structure a new inbound police antennae .
Like I said, you can have more receivers than you
23 have a transmitter. The police department, they
actually .have what is called a voted system, so
24 there' s multiple paths for inbound audio coming
from different places . And there' s a computer
25 that decides in real time which signal is heard
the best . It' s not inexpensive but it' s very
February 3 , 2005
18
1
2 effective, but they need a receiver out here .
The receiver, they need to have a new
3 receiver at the site in Orient at the height we
selected, would improve their coverage
4 significantly from what they have today. They
have a lot of dead spots . I didn' t actually bring
5 a map of the existing system but they have a lot
of dead spots out on the eastern end of the
6 Island. And they would be well-filled, as you can
see it' s all green.
7 We have just pretty much covered that . I
put the map up first but it' s pretty easy to
8 understand if we have that structure available we
would also want to let them use it . It would make
9 a big difference in their radio system coverage .
That' s the end. Have I left any stone
10 unturned?
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: . I don' t think so .
11 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: The height?
MR. SCHEIBEL: The height of the antennae?
12 It' s pretty simple, how I came up with all this,
is I used a computer program to model it, and the
13 number I came up with to attain those figures and
fulfill that goal was 120 feet . It' s just a
14 matter of the arithmatic and honestly, could it be
higher? Yes . The ultimate plot I ran to get to
15 95 , 96 percent coverage took it to 180 , 190, and
actually if you look at other radio systems like
16 Southampton, Selden, Flanders, they' re all at 180
to 195 height . But once again, what' s reasonable .
17 I looked at -- this is what I do, I looked at what
I had to accomplish, I looked at what my goals
18 were . I looked at what was doable . I looked at
120 feet . One of the requirements was Orient Fire
19 Department is the first mutual aid from the
mainland to Plum Island. The Plum Island radio
20 system is a federal system, which they do not
share . It' s actually going up brand new, and it' s
21 not in yet, and really we do not even know how
it' s going to work. But the federal radio system
22 is being put in by the Department of Homeland
Security. I actually did some work on the job for
23 Motorola. That' s not what the fire department
uses for mutual aid. The fire department uses
24 their system to talk to their men for their men to
get assistance from their department . That' s why
25 in the mutual aid plans on the chief counsel here
on the north fork, there' s a plan for this . Like
February 3 , 2005
19
1
2 I said, this isn' t something Orient' s doing. It' s
something everyone' s doing, and the 120 foot
3 number is what worked. That' s what I could meet
the goals with. Could it be higher? Sure . But
4 do they need to talk to Selden? No.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: How far will they be
5 able to talk, just to Mattituck, to Laurel?
MR. SCHEIBEL: Map shows hand held to hand
6 held, they' ll be able to go from almost the end of
Plum Island at 90 percent into East Marion. So
7 they' ll be able to cover one fire from mutual
district to each site, that' s how I engineered it,
8 that' s what they asked me to do . Last summer I
engineered a system for the Town of Southampton.
9 They wanted hand held to hand held coverage in the
whole Town of Southampton, 20 something miles
10 long. They wanted to know that this ambulance guy
can talk to this fire guy if one guy is in Speonk
11 and the other guy is out sitting on the East
Hampton border, does it work? Yes, it works
12 really good.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: How high is their
13 antennae?
MR. SCHEIBEL: They have three of them all
14 over 200 feet . It' s a matter of mathematics and
engineering.
15 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Even at 120 feet if you
needed mutual aid you could not contact Greenport
16 or even Southold?
MR. SCHEIBEL: No. Let' s put it this way,
17 on a mobile radio, not a hand held, they will
probably be able to reach beyond the -- when you
18 feed parameters of the program, we use what we
call worst case, so you used a hand held radio at
19 three watts with the standard rubber duck antennae
at waist level, because that' s where the firemen
20 carry the radio on their turn out gear, then
there' s another set of arithmatic that says the
21 signal from that radio has to have a certain
amount of intelligibility to be a useable radio
22 signal, and that' s also the parameters of the
program, that' s how you know I can do 90 percent .
23 The simple explanation of the 90 percent rule is
nine times out of 10 when you key the microphone
24 you can get the person on the first try, that' s
measured on a three by three foot cell basis .
25 That' s why you see the maps, little squares . One
square would change colors and one wouldn' t,
February 3 , 2005
20
1
2 that' s the cell . You can actually define the cell
size too, but I tried to do it like three feet by
3 three feet .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Has Plum Island asked
4 for mutual aid from Orient?
MR. SCHEIBEL: That' s not something I
5 could tell you. That would be a fire department
question.
6 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Members, Vincent, any
questions?
7 BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO : One question I have
is, is the 90 feet good for the police department?
8 MR. SCHEIBEL: Yes, because the police is
only a receiver, not a transmitter. They have a
9 very big transmitter in Peconic on their tower.
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: The one comment you
10 had was you can' t talk through dirt, but you' re
saying that one fire department button has an
11 emergency button, if you' re in the basement, isn' t
that talking through dirt?
12 MR. SCHEIBEL: Remember I showed you how
you have a lot more concentration of RF in your
13 local district? ' That' s because you want that
radio to be able to in those parameters you feed
14 the program, use the worst case scenario, so yes,
you can predict with a high probability, 90 plus
15 percent that when he hits that button, the radio' s
going to be heard.
16 MR. SIMON: What can you do with 90 feet?
MR. SCHEIBEL: Something less than what
17 that map says .
MR. SIMON: You can' t get to Plum Island,
18 but can -you get to Orient Point?
MR. SCHEIBEL: I would assume you could
19 probably get to some of it, but what' s going to
happen is the umbrella of the red and yellow where
20 you want the concentration will shrink, so there
you' re directly affecting the probability that
21 that radio' s reaching when it is in the basement .
Because there' s a lot of things built into the
22 program, there' s a thing called feznol effect,
there' s a thing called .tree canopy, where even
23 based on the time of year it' s not just a matter
of the radio being in the basement, if it' s June
24 or July, it' s in the basement talking through all
the foliage that' s in the trees . So the more
25 energy that you can pump into that local geography
where you need the coverage is obviously the
February 3 , 2005
i
21
1
2 better the system' s going to work. And once
again, what is the rule, what is the fundamental
3 rule? Height is might . And you can' t talk
through dirt .
4 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I understand it
5 perfectly. Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Kieran?
6 MR. CORCORAN: No, thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: All right, let me ask
7 Mr. Turner if he would like to make his
presentation.
8 MR. TURNER: I don' t have any equipment,
I ' m sorry. John Turner, I live in Orient . I 'm a
9 professor at New York University of information
technology. I've been there some 30 years .
10 Before that I designed military command and
control systems for Airborne Instruments
11 Laboratory out on the Island. I am an electrical
engineer and a computer scientist . My current
12 work now is mostly in various aspects of
computing. I did do a study for the New York City
13 Police Department on their 911 system a number of
years ago which resulted in changes in the
14 procedures for that system that made it more
effective .
15 I thought Mr. Scheibel' s presentation was
excellent, and I have one point I' ll make about
16 it, but I thought it was extremely educational .
It was accurate, and he set forth the issues very
17 clearly. I wish it were easier to work
cooperately with the commissioners of the Orient
18 Fire District because I think we could have saved
ourselves maybe a half an hour. I think there is
19 no disagreement that it would be in the best
interest of the community to move the
20 communications to the high band. All of the
problems that the low band has' make it more
21 problematic to use, and the technology that is
available at the high band allows you to do many
22 more things . Just having channels that are
available for different types of communications is
23 extremely important . So I think there is no
disagreement on the question of moving as many of
24 the fire districts here as possible to the high
band.
25 I think the issue, however, is that I
don' t think Orient' s current communication is any
February 3 , 2005
22
1
2 poorer than Greenport' s or East Marions or the
surrounding fire districts . In other words, this
3 is a problem that' s shared and we' re just getting
to the end of the useful life of the low band
4 systems, and we are going to have to move . So
this is a problem that I think you are going to
5 have to deal with for all the communities here .
And I think the question that you' re going to have
6 to deal with is do you really want to see a series
of 120 foot antennaes spring up every four or five
7 miles or might there be some technologies that
would make sense to explore for the Southold
8 community which might in turn allow you to do the
same thing but not have a series of antennaes .
9 And the second issue I think is, that
should you decide to go forward with 120 foot
10 antennae for Orient, I think it' s extremely
important that that antennae be used for emergency
11 communication and that it not be a vehicle to
include cell communications and other types of
12 communications, and that you get into a situation
where there are many other difficulties . So I
13 think the issue is how to constrain an antennae if
one were to go forward.
14 Let me deal a little bit with some of the
technical side of things because I know that that
15 is what you want to focus on, and I' ll be very
happy to take any questions you may have . I think
16 I agree with everything that Bill said except for
the answer on the question of the 90 foot
17 antennae, which I compliment you on, sir, for your
asking it . For two months we have asked Bill
18 through Ed, Mr. Boyd, to do plots at the Orient
firehouse for talk in and talk out at 120 feet, 90
19 feet, 75 feet, and 60 feet . We did that because
we wanted to understand the extent to which the
20 performance was degraded. Now the talk out is not
going to be an issue . The question is the talk in
21 and the question is as you lower the height of the
antennae, how are you lowering the line of sight .
22 What aren' t you going to see? Now Bill has a
computer program to do this . My understanding of
23 this is that that' s changing essentially a couple
of parameters in that program. It probably takes
24 a half an hour to run and plot out . I think that
information should be available so that you can
25 see for yourself the extent to which the signal is
degraded, and that is really what I disagree with
February 3 , 2005
23
1
2 him on.
A second point I' d like to make is that we
3 have been trying to work cooperatively with the
Orient Fire District through Mr. Boyd. I have
4 made repeated requests, and I believe I have
copied you on them for a variety of information
5 that would have allowed us to explore the antennae
height question and also a couple of alternatives
6 which may not work, but were at least worthwhile
to investigate prior to going forward, not
7 afterwards, and what I feel a little -- how can I
say this -- what I don' t understand is why that
8 information hasn' t been forthcoming. When I see
this in a student, I usually figure the student' s
9 trying to hide something from me . I mean, we are
in a cooperative situation here . All of us want
10 to see the absolutely best emergency communication
for our fire districts and I would leave
11 immediately if you believe that we wanted anything
less, but also, when you' re working and you' re
12 trying to understand a problem and the community
has a right to understand what it is that is being
13 proposed, and whether various alternatives have
been explored and, in fact, I believe the rules
14 that govern this require a written submission of
alternative schemes, so that they can be
15 understood by others, and that to my knowledge has
just not been done by the Orient Fire District, so
16 I find that a little difficult to understand and I
am at a loss . . I think that there are some
17 alternates that are worth exploring. The
Greenport police I know use an antennae in
18 Greenport, and they have run tests out at Orient
point, and that they are satisfied with that
19 performance . I think there is a 300 foot public
service antennae in Greenport . It may very well
20 be that there needs to be a medium height repeater
located at the Orient Firehouse to be able to pick
21 up the signals, the hand helds coming in because
you need to have at least one repeater site to be
22 able to take the signal in for the hand fields, and
I think going to a repeater system makes all the
23 sense . You don' t want two hand helds to
communicate to each other, you want to communicate
24 to a repeater site then transmit out . There seems
to me there' s no problem on the talk out, if you
25 lower the height, and it may very well be that
since it' s the hand held power that gorges and as
February 3 , 2005
24
1
2 long as you can see the antennae, it would only be
at the fringes on the East Marion side that you
3 would lose signal strength as you lower the
height .
4 So I would just like to see what happens
with a repeater of lower height at Orient but use
5 of the public service antennae here in Greenport .
I don' t know whether there is space available, I
6 know nothing of the cost, but it is an option that
should be investigated prior to going forward and
7 it should be seriously investigated. It shouldn' t
be, well, look, we know this stuff, take my word
8 for it, we have investigated it . I think that is
not how you do things in an open and in a public
9 situation. we' re actually trying to do the same
things here .
10 The other thing that is further out and
more difficult to investigate is what' s called a
11 distributed antennae system, and such a system
makes use of fiber optic cabling to existing
12 telegraph poles . The antennae sits on the top of
the telegraph pole, all of the electronics are at
13 the top of the pole, so you use your existing
poles, you have to put in fiber optic cable, but
14 it gives you a large number of antennaes located
throughout the district so you get the advantage
15 of being much closer to a building where you' re
going to lose signal strength because you' re in
16 the basement of a building, and you' re much more
likely to have good communications than having
17 only one antennae centrally located that may be
three or four miles from a transmitter that' s in
18 the basement of a building which is probably not
going to have sufficient signal strength.
19 So, such a system should be looked at
because my understanding is that East Marion now
20 is planning, proposing a system, and I think some
of the other communities here could easily do
21 that, and I think Southold needs to think through
what an infrastructure like a distributed antennae
22 system that could handle both cell and emergency
communication for all of Southold. The costs
23 could be shared by the various communities and it
might be a possibility, a way out of just seeing
24 these antennaes springing up every four or five
miles . So at a minimum I think it would be
25 worthwhile going far enough down the line to show
that such a system was not feasible . I would be
February 3 , 2005
25
1
2 glad to take any questions .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Vincent?
3 BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Has the
conversation come up, with alternative sites or is
4 it locked in stone it has to be on this
topography? What about putting it on the north
5 shore where it' s higher?
MR. TURNER: I think we originally thought
.6 that in the Orient area you wanted to put
something on Brown' s Hills because you get 100
7 feet up immediately. Orient' s pretty flat and if
you had a distributor system, you could have
8 something out at the point, you could have
something at Brown' s Hills . When I learned about
9 these sort of lower height broadly distributed
systems, I would tend to look at both. I would
10 look at one with maybe four or five locations
around Orient and making sure you were at the East
11 Marion border and maybe even East Marion and
making sure you covered Orient with maybe four or
12 five sites, and I ' d also look at this mesh system
which makes use of a lot, of very small antennaes
13 that are just put on top of poles . My
understanding of the brief that was given to
14 Mr. Scheibel by the Orient Fire District was
first, that they had to cover fire districts to
15 the east, one district to the east and one
district to the west, and that the equipment had
16 to be on the Orient Fire District property, which
essentially means at the Orient firehouse, and
17 that was, I believe what he was given. I don' t
know i.f .Bill has investigated any of these other
18 things .
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: No, ;you can' t be at
19 another site or no, you haven' t looked into it?
MR. SCHEIBEL: No, I haven' t looked at
20 it . That' s not what the fire department asked me
to do. And I can tell you also that based on my
21 experience you' re talking systems just on a cost
basis far in excess, and I mean far, in capital
22 letters, of what we' re proposing at the firehouse .
MR. TURNER: I think you want to look at
23 economics and you want to do a small study, and
you need to have the people come in and you need a
24 proposal in hand.
MR. SCHEIBEL: You know what that would
25 cost?
MR. TURNER: I know the systems but there
February 3 , 2005
26
1
2 are other communities, Bill, that are going down
that route .
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: East Hampton.
MR. SCHEIBEL: I'm doing their system
4 right now. It' s not designed that way.
MR. TURNER: I think it is potentially
5 interesting. I don' t think it should be ruled out
because somebody says it' s economically
6 infeasible . I know that East Hampton is in the
process of very serious discussions about such a
7 system, and it just behooves Southold to take a
look at it and get the data. I think, you know,
8 the problem I have is that I'm used to studying
things in advance of deciding what to do, and if
9 reasonable alternatives are not studied seriously
then I get very concerned. And I feel to some
10 extent that that is the situation here . And I
just would feel better if we could get the
11 information, rule some of these things out, but I
do believe you have to go very shortly to a high
12 band system for emergency communications .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Michael?
13 MR. SIMON: No further questions .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Jim?
14 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO : I have comments .
Number one I don' t believe the application before
15 us is necessarily what you' re speaking about,
Mr. Turner, in that we have before us a fire
16 district that owns a piece of land that the
district chose to put a firehouse on. And they
17 have come before us with an application to put up
an antennae . Now, they are not required in my
18 opinion to prove that it will work better
someplace else other than the fire department .
19 This is their purview, this is their
responsibility, and this is what they' re
20 proposing. Certainly, if. someone .within that
district wanted to request of the district to do
21 the study, then those people have every right to
make that decision, but to then require this Board
22 to require a fire district to do what you asked
them to do, which is to do a study, that' s not the
23 reason this Board is here, and that' s not the
reason we' re here tonight .
24 MR. TURNER: Could I respond to that?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure .
25 MR. TURNER: I am in the district and we
have requested verbally and in writing that they
February 3 , 2005
27
1
2 do these studies, but it doesn' t make any
difference . The second thing is that my
3 understanding is that they have asked for a waiver
in height, and when you ask for a waiver in
4 height, there are certain requirements that need
to be followed. My understanding of that. is that
5 you need to look at alternatives to that height,
to that antennae and that that is part of the
6 process of presenting information for the waiver.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you,
7 now the alternative is within what they can
control . They can control that piece of land and
8 only that piece of land, and they' re proposing --
what they' re proposing is what they think is best
9 for them. Now, putting one on Brown' s Hill,
building a mesh system, I can tell you right now,
10 sir, I have installed probably upwards of 200
miles of fiber cable . If you add up each fiber I
11 installed, I would say it would go into hundreds
of thousands of miles I was responsible for as I
12 work for Cablevision. My current company I
probably have eight or nine miles of fiber
13 installed, and I can tell you it' s about $2 , 000
for 100 foot to install and maintain it, $2 , 000
14 for about 100 feet, 300 feet, $6 , 000 . It' s a lot
of money. I don' t know what a hand held radio
15 costs, but I' ll tell you if you' re going to build
a mesh system, you' re going to be quite a few
16 miles of that at that cost .
MR. TURNER: Look, the economics, I'm just
17 saying we need to take a look at it .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO : , Sir, that seems
18 that that is just a stalling tactic . The
comparison of building a 120 foot tower and
19 handing out some hands held radios and building a
mesh system, there is no comparison to that . I
20 understand New York City, they got plenty of money
there and, of course, they have their own
21 problems, they have to go up and down and
under. These people don' t . They just need to
22 build an umbrella that they can transmit to from a
radio .
23 Now, I venture to say that if this man did
plot out a 90 foot pipe you would not see very
24 much less rod in the center, I would venture to
say that . I'm talking from the perspective of
25 being in the fire department for 30 years, I lost
two friends that would have, had they had the
February 3 , 2005
28
1
2 te'chnology he' s talking about, would be alive
today. I can tell you these gentlemen go to work
3 each day, and when they go to bed at night and
that fire bell goes in at 2 : 00 in the morning,
4 they answer that call . They really don' t want to
have to deal with whether or not because they
5 built a 90 foot tower they can' t get on a certain
street . They want the best that their community
6 can afford to give them. I'm going to go back to
what I just said before, if you want to hash this
7 out, the best place to hash this out is at the
commissioner' s meetings . This should have been
8 done three years ago, not now. Now.we' re trying
to deal with one piece of property that wants a
9 120 foot tower and honestly, they have convinced
me that height is might and the higher it can go
10 the better.
Now, if it' s 120 feet they' re asking for
11 then maybe that' s what they get . If you can show ,
that it can be done at 90 feet, then let us know
12 that, you get your expert in here, and let us know
that . But your expert, honestly, is that man,
13 he' s your district . Your fire district from
Orient hired this man as an expert .
14 MR. TURNER: In effect what you' re saying
is don' t ask intelligent questions, don' t ask to
15 see any information.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No, sir. I 'm
16 saying to you, sir, is ask them in the right
place .
17 MR. TURNER: I have asked them in writing,
I have asked them verbally.
18 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Your remedy is to
vote them out .
19 MR. SIMON: I would actually agree . What
we have here is a situation in which we have two
20 experts . One of them is in the employ of an
interested party, obviously, that' s their job, and
21 when asked is there a problem, his answer, a very
articulate, well-argued answer is, no
22 problem. The outside expert has said, we think
there are still some questions that need to be
23 answered, not arguing that Mr. Scheibel' s
recommendation is wrong, but just that we need to
24 answer some further questions, and we are the
Board who have the obligation to decide not what
25 is and what is not a good idea, but whether a
variance should be granted, and that decision
February 3 , 2005
29
1
2 could be made intelligently only with answers to
the types of questions that Mr. Turner has raised.
3 So to me it seems to be a no-brainer to say that
we cannot proceed until further information is
4 given in answer to the questions Mr. Turner
raised.
5 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I would agree with
you if I thought this was the proper venue for
6 this discussion. But this is not . This gentleman
is suggesting that they do something, that the
7 fire department do something that they have no
control over. They have no control over Greenport
8 tower, they have no control over Brown' s Hills,
they have no control over a mesh system.
9 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I understand that but I
do understand what Mr. Turner is saying that you
10 could just look into it .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: You don' t need to .
11 That' s not part of our application.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I 'm not saying that we
12 have to direct them, but I think they have some
validity to ask their questions .
13 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Their venue `is the
commissioners of their district .
14 MR. TURNER: Is there a commissioner here
of the district?
15 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Mr. Scheibel wanted to
answer.
16 MR. SCHEIBEL: The only comment is I 'm
involved in implementation of East Hampton' s
17 quote/unquote mesh system right now. That is a
nine million dollar implementation. I just wanted
18 to give you an idea of the order of magnitude . It
is a mesh system in that it uses multiple sites,
19 but they' re all high sites, the shortest one is
about 170 feet, it' s at the Amagansett firehouse,
20 and that' s how the system' s being built .
MS . MCNEELEY: I'm a resident of Orient .
21 I 'm in total agreement with John that we really,
want the fire department to have the high band
22 communications for all of the reasons that Bill
talked about . It' s absolutely correct . I was on
23 the phone today with the communications manager of
the Planning Board of the Town of East Hampton and
24 she told me that they had invited a company called
Clear Lengths to design and distribute an antennae
25 system in mesh for cellular communications . And
we know from our researchers that such a system
February 3 , 2005
30
1
2 can easily be used for emergency communications
because what they do is the signal that' s
3 broadcast over the fiber optic, that' s carried
over the fiber optic line, goes to the antennae
4 and is reconverted to a radio frequency signal;
which means then that you can use a telephone pole
5 or an existing tower or several lower, 60 foot
towers for instance to be a total system. And
6 they decide to do this and to make the invitation
because they really didn' t want East Hampton to
7 look like a porcupine, and that in her research as
communications director she found this particular
8 company who, unlike others, which would erect
utility poles and have a utility cabinets at the
9 base of the pole, which is not a very secure
situation, this company uses existing telephone
10 poles and existing towers and mounts their utility
cabinet on the pole . So it' s very much like a
11 telephone thing we see in some of these big things
on the poles as they exist now. Because it has
12 been initiated by the planning department and
because of their particular zoning regulations, it
13 does not require zoning or building departments
issues at all . It' s something they can do very
14 quickly if they can come up with the money. Now,
East Hampton, like Southold, has a number of
15 hamlets in it . I 'm not sure what their
governmental structure is, but East Hampton is a
16 township in the same way that Southold is .
The proposal that she is inviting is to
17 distribute this throughout the town itself in all
of the different hamlets of the town, utilizing
18 the existing infrastructure, and the existing
infrastructure would be the four large towers that
19 they now have, the one that Mr. Scheibel is
locating behind the fire department in Amagansett
20 and other ones like that, as well as telephone
poles, in order to make this very large mesh that
21 covers the entire town. They' re distributing the
costs obviously through the different fire
22 districts in East Hampton in order to do that . So
that what sounds like a nine million dollar thing
23 for the town of Orient would be absolutely out of
the question. But we don' t cover as much of an
24 area in Southold as East Hampton does . So
argueably the cost might be lower. We have no
25 idea because I just was talking to her today, how
do I know.
February 3 , 2005
31
1
2 But if Southold, for instance, were to
proceed in a similar manner, we' re certain it
3 could result in a well-developed area-wide
communications system, improved cellular
4 communications because you would be distributing
the costs of such an implementation with the
5 cellular companies because the request that they
made was basically to cell companies . And since I
6 had contacted Clear Links myself directly and
found out that there would be no impediments to
7 running emergency communications over the wires
that they need for the cellular communication,
8 there would be an ability to split the costs
between the cell companies and the districts in
9 East Hampton, which was another reason they were
so interested in it . If this were to be the case,
10 they would be writing a contract with the town
instead of leases with the individual fire
11 departments . So that would enable possibly the
full retention of tax exemptions within fire
12 districts without compromising future funding
needs . It would also save a lot of legal fees for
13 the various fire districts . Income from the
cellular component of that structure could be
14 earmarked for the fire districts for incoming
reserve funds or pensions or whatever they wanted
15 to do . The plan in East Hampton is being modeled
to coordinate planning and building and zoning,
16 all of whom would have shared input and
responsibility; and it thus would be implemented
17 very quickly and avoid public uproar like we have
been experiencing. And all of the same concerns
18 which motivated this structure in East Hampton,
which has a more complicated terrain than Southold
19 has, eastern Long Island Hospital in Greenport
Fire Department and the Southold police
20 communications network on the Greenport tower make
Greenport Village participation in such a plan
21 crucial because any emergency communications has
to involve eastern Long Island Hospital . There' s
22 no question about it . It has to involve the
Greenport Fire Department . So it would be whether
23 or not the ease of communication between the
village and the town is one issue, but because
24 it' s an area wide -- it' s a possibility of an area
wide solution, and we' re with Plum Island, which
25 is federal and dangerous, there is Millstone .
There are a lot of different things that we need
February 3 , 2 0 0:5
32
1
2 emergency communications for. And this type of
system I think really well thought out to be
3 looked at, and if it is structured the way East
Hampton is talking about, it could avoid a lot of
4 town distress .
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO : , Did you ask or did
5 they tell you how long it would take to install or
implement something like this?
6 MS . MCNEELEY: I had a very brief
conversation with her. She was sick. She said
7 because the infrastructure was basically existing,
which is to say all the telephone poles are
8 around, it would be relatively quick to implement
from that point of view. They have existing
9 towers . Basically what they do is they set up --
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: You don' t know how
10 long it would take?
MS . MCNEELEY: No, I don' t but I don' t
11 think it would be as long as --
BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: I don' t want you to
12 speculate .
MS . MCNEELEY: The only thing I'm going to
13 say is if you' re going to have a tower in
Mattituck and a tower in Cutchogue and a tower in
14 East Marion, which is proposed, and a tower in
Orient, how long is that whole process going to
15 take to evolve as well . If Southold itself could
come up with an emergency communication system
16 that involved all the hamlets with Town
responsibility and distribution of costs and
17 cooperation with cell companies who have been
wanting to get in here, and we could make it
18 possible to do that without voiding our zoning, it
makes a certain amount of sense .
19 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Ellen, I don' t disagree
with what you' re saying it' s just that this Board
20 doesn' t have the authority to insist that
something like this should be done . The fire
21 district here has been more or less an entity unto
itself, and this would have to go through the fire
22 chief' s council and take a fair amount of time to
see if they would be interested in joining
23 together to do something like this .
MS . MCNEELEY: Well, they already have
24 joined to the extent that they have written a
mutual aid agreement and all of them are
25 signatories to that, including Plum Island. So
there is a precedent for that . And if they didn' t
February 3 , 2005
33
1
2 have to risk their tax exemptions --
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: But you would have to
3 bring this proposal to the fire chiefs
association, we have no authority to do anything
4 like that whatsoever. Our only jurisdiction here
is a height variance . That' s it .
5 MS . MCNEELEY: This is an alternative .
MR. CORCORAN: This would have to come
6 through the Town Board as well, since it would
require a change in the Town Board and the Town as
7 a governing body.
MS . MCNEELEY: I don' t think it would
8 require a change in the Town code .
MR. CORCORAN: If you' re going to require
9 them to engage in this sort of system, I suspect
it might .
10 MS . MCNEELEY: John?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I can tell you East
11 Hampton Town has three fire districts, Amagansett
and Springs -- four.
12 MS . MCNEELEY: And it' s very hilly.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That' s why they' re
13 doing the mesh system. . .
MR. SCHEIBEL: They have already spent the
14 money for the public safety system. It would be
that the clear system (inaudible) . It' s built to
15 be a mesh network, and the mesh network is based
on the requirements of a cell phone system where
16 each site can populate the other site with its
traffic and transparently cast that traffic site .
17 MS . MCNEELEY: That' s exactly the beauty
of it, what I 'm getting at, and what they' re
18 getting at .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: You' ll have to debate
19 this later. Mr. Turner?
MR. TURNER: I just wanted to close with
20 one or two quick comments . I wanted to say to the
Orient Fire District that it troubles me greatly
21 to see the Orient Association appearing to be
battling the fire district . That is not the case .
22 We really understand what they are attempting to
do for us, and we are extremely grateful . I think
23 that there are other matters that are playing
here, and I think those have tended maybe on the
24 sidelines influencing things . I think to the
extent that we could make sure that anything you
25 do actually is for emergency communications and is
not a mechanism for getting cellular
February 3 , 2005
34
1
2 communications in and is as thin and transparent
an antennae as possible would be extremely
3 important .
The second point is I think this whole
4 process is very good, and you are to be commended
and thank you for hearing us, and thank you for
5 spending the time with us .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you, sir. Mr.
6 Boyd?
MR. BOYD: Ma' am, chair, if you can for a .
7 moment indulge me, take off my hat as attorney for
the fire district, and I'm now putting on my hat
8 as vice-president of Southold Town Fire Chief' s
Council .
9 We have explored this issue very
carefully, and we are definitely as a Fire Chief' s
10 Council pushing each and every one of our
districts to go to the 450 megahertz communication
11 system. Mattituck already has a tower in place,
Cutchogue has a tower in place . We' re going to
12 that direction. It has been investigated. It' s
been investigated very carefully by all of us . I
13 just wanted to let the people know that this
matter has been looked at at the chief' s council
14 level .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: But it hasn' t been
15 looked at as far as doing something cooperatively.,
MR. BOYD: Yes . We are doing it
16 cooperatively so we can all talk with one another.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: But it means that each
17 hamlet will have to put up their own tower?
MR. BOYD: Yes . Each fire district will
18 have its own communications base . There' s no
question about that, but we are working together
19 to have one system which will give us the
inter-communication abilities that is so vital and
20 will also let us talk to our neighbors further to
the west because we will have the equipment to go
21 on the 450 megahertz, which is being used
presently on the south fork by a goodly number of
22 the departments and almost on a monthly basis
you've got another department down there going
23 450 . That' s my fire chief' s hat, not my lawyer
hat .
24 BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: Does the lawyer hat
want to speak now? No.
25 MR. BOYD: As the attorney for the
district I would like to give the chairman of the
February 3 , 2005
35
1 �
2 Board of fire commissioners an opportunity to
speak.
3 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Go ahead, Marty.
MR. TRENT: There are a lot of things I
4 want to say. My name is Martin Trent . I live at
4390 Orchard Street in Orient . I'm chairman of
5 the Board of Fire Commissioners from the Orient
Fire District . I've been a fireman for 25 years .
6 I have been company secretary for 17 years . I've
been commissioner for 10 years . I 've never seen
7 Mr. Turner attend one of our meetings in the last
several years . I have also been through the
8 chief' s line . I think we' re getting way off
track.
9 We need to improve our communications . We
need to do it now. We don' t need a college study.
10 I ' d like to get this done in my lifetime . The
question before you is one of aesthetics versus
11 public safety.
I 'm one of those guys that about 20 years
12 ago fell through a floor and ended up in a
basement, I'm just glad I was 30 something then
13 and didn' t do it now at my age . It could happen,
and I don' t think I'm going to bounce back as well
14 as I did at that point . The only thing we' re
asking is to put up a flag pole structure that
15 we' re going to make hopefully blue-gray that will
be unobtrusive that will improve our
16 communications and protect public safety and the
lives of our firefighters and police . Simply put,
17 we' re not asking for anything more, anything less .
Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you, Marty.
MS . WACHSBERG: Just as a point of
19 privilege as one of the people -- as you did,
Ruth -- writing the legislation, and, Jim, the
20 reason why we' re here is that' s because that' s the
way the legislation is written, and the way the
21 ledgislation was written was that we spent a great
deal of time working out how we could protect
22 residential and historic areas . And the reason
we' re here is because there was a limit put on the
23 height in those areas, and to request a height
variance you have to come here, and that' s why
24 we' re here, and why are we concerned about the
height .
25 It' s not a question -- aesthetics makes it
sound arty-farty, but the fact is that visual
February 3 , 2005
36
1
2 impact is one of the basic reasons why people come
and protest the applications for towers . It has
3 to do with a sense of place and that was picked up
after Tony Hiss wrote a book called A Sense of
4 Place . And one of the points he made was that a
10 percent change in visual impact of an area can
5 actually transform people' s sense of place 90
percent . And this was picked up by a lot of other
6 communities . This is put out by Scenic Hudson.
This is called Protecting Our Region' s Sense of
7 Place in the Age of Wireless Communications . This
was done after Southold Town' s legislation, it
8 recommends a lot of the legislation that Southold
Town put into place, and the tenents of that
9 legislation specifically go to protecting the
residential and the historic areas . Orient is a
10 particularly sensitive one . I'm speaking now as a
past president of the Historical Society and of
11 the Orient Association. And one of the things
that struck me as an incomer into this area was
12 how much the community of Orient respected and
cared for its past, first evidenced by the
13 formation of the Historic Society in 1944 , when
400 people joined, that was practically the entire
14 community. Then again in 1976 when an enormous
number of people worked on the project to have the
15 Historic district created, and I just want to read
one thing from the book that was published at that
16 time . It' s the last paragraph, actually, it says :
"Perhaps it' s hard to know where to end a
17 history like this because there' s always tomorrow.
Perhaps it will too say that village sentiment at
18 the time of this writing is in favor of preserving
Orient from here on with as little change as
19 possible . The community takes satisfaction in the
recognition of the Orient Historic District and
20 hopes that ultimately the stretch of Main Road
from the village to Orient Point can be declared
21 an historic corridor, confirming to the world at
large that Orient as a whole is a place worth
22 caring for. "
The sense of place has been extremely
23 strong in Orient . This tower is sited in a very
sensitive place . It' s sensitive from the point of
24 view of the scenic by way that was created for the
Main Road at that point . And I won' t go into the
25 stuff I distributed to all of us, that' s why I
think the Board should be asked to pay particular
February 3 , 2005
37
l
1
2 attention to the conditions that were, in fact,
placed on the construction of a tower in a
3 residential and historic district .
There are conditions, for instance, which
4 have not been met . For instance, the applicant
was supposed to be asked to come in with a site
5 plan showing all of the towers in the town. There
are other conditions that have not been met . I
6 don' t know whether apart from the height whether
the acreage has been met . I'm not sure there' s
7 five acres as is requested by the legislation.
I 'm saying the reason why we' re here, the reason
8 why the Orient Association has been concerned is
not because we don' t want the fire department to
9 have what it needs for adequate communication,
obviously we do. It' s in all our interests,
10 that' s clear. Orient has always given the fire
department what it wanted in terms of financing,
11 always, whether it' s a pension plan, construction
of the building, purchase of the plot that it' s on
12 at the moment, we have always supported that
financially. There' s no question about that . But
13 we have to also balance the other interests here
as well . That' s why I hope that a compromise, I
14 really hope that Board will see its way to ask for
a compromise in this instance, particularly in
15 regard to the height because that is what will
make the most impact .
16 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Thank you, Freddie .
MR. REALE : Edward Reale, Twomey, Latham,
17 Shea and Kelley, here as attorney for the Orient
Association. I'm not going to repeat things we
18 have already talked about tonight or other days we
were here .
19 I have two comments, essentially this is a
quasi-judicial board. You' re here to make a
20 decision about the need for a height variance .
What is required to do that is some proof .
21 Mr. Scheibel, as everyone recognizes is very
capable, did a very nice job, pretty pictures .
22 One of the questions I have in going through those
lovely pictures of coverage, in the course of
23 proving something, if you' re proving something in
court, you' re proving something in front of a
24 Board you show all the other ways something can be
done . Mr. Scheibel was very careful not to answer
25 the question about what would happen at 100 feet
or 90 feet or 75 feet . I'm sure those pretty
February 3 , 2005
38
1
2 graphs could have been plotted for some other
heights so this Board could see whether the
3 coverage was adequate at 90 or 100 or 60 ,
whatever, I don' t know. That would have been very
4 easily done today and been part of the project and
picture, I think it' s an important question, it
5 goes to what Mr. Dinizio asked earlier, is it your
decision to determine these things? It is in fact
6 your decision to determine whether the height
variance is merited. Height is might is a nice
7 thing to say, and I hope in future applications,
if I ever need a height variance from this Board I
8 can use that . It would be nice to prove that
maybe you don' t have to go quite as high, that' s
9 really the question, and that hasn' t been shown as
far as I could tell from tonight, not that
10 anything Mr. Scheibel said was incorrect, but I
think there' s a few missing pieces, and I think
11 that' s an important issue . And that goes to my
second point, which is this whole thing started
12 some time ago with a telecommunications
application from Beacon Wireless, and I don' t
13 really know what' s happened to that whole process
or where they stand, and if the lease that' s in
14 the record is still in place and Mr. Cannuscio
going to build this tower, and do we need the
15 tower at 120 so we have room for not only
emergency services but these other things . I
16 think that goes to the height question as well . I
think if anything, those questions do need to be
17 answered. What does it look like at other heights
and where is Mr. Cannuscio on this tower and how
18 does that all fit in? Thank you.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Bill, do you have any
19 other questions?
MR. SCHEIBEL: I was careful not to
20 respond -- I did what the fire department asked me
to. The way the question was asked and answered
21 is, what do I need to do this . I gave them what
. they need. If this changes, I' ll do anything the
22 fire department asks me to do. Don' t personalize
this that Mr. Scheibel did this .
23 MR. REALE : If any offense was taken, I 'm
sorry, that' s not what I meant .
24 MR. SCHEIBEL: It was just phraseology?
MR. REALE : It was phraseology. At the
25 last meeting I said you were credible, capable,
you' re a very good expert . I say the same
February 3 , 2005
39
1
2 tonight . My only point was, there were no charts
of other heights for proving to this Board -- I 'm
3 sure you' re doing what the fire department asked
you to do, nobody' s saying you didn' t . I 'm not
4 saying that either. All I'm saying as a matter of
proof, you could show .other heights and other
5 impacts of the coverage, and I apologize if you
took that personally, that' s not how I meant it .
6 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: What is the Board' s
pleasure?
7 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I ' d like to ask
Mr. Scheibel a couple questions, do you mind?
8 MR. SCHEIBEL: No .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO : The way I
9 understand. it, the fire department approached you
and they wanted a certain increase in the
10 reliability of their radio system that the low
band just wasn' t going to do. And you determined
11 that that low band is not going to do what they
want, what they think they need.
12 1 MR. SCHEIBEL: And if you own a scanner,
you can pretty much figure that out by listening.
13 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: I think everybody' s
agreed to that . You went out and plotted on your
14 computer this 90 percent coverage --
MR. SCHEIBEL: Right .
15 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: What was the result
of that plot?
16 MR. SCHEIBEL: The tower at 120 feet .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: If you were to plot
17 85?
MR. SCHEIBEL: The average will go down.
18 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: The tower could
probably be lower?
19 MR SCHEIBEL: Yes .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Would the tower
20 most likely be lower or would it definitely be
lower, it could definitely be lower?
21 MR. SCHEIBEL: Yes . And coverage will go
down lower in some proportion which is nonlinear.
22 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, I agree . And
I think that my statement concerning the red would
23 probably hold us up that if you did it at 85 you
would not really notice any difference?
24 MR. SCHEIBEL: On the red local to the
firehouse, the place you see the difference in on
25 the extremities .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: On the output of
February 3 , 2005
40
1
2 the hand helds?
MR. SCHEIBEL: Correct .
3 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And the difference
probably wouldn' t be that much in color on those
4 spots?
MR. SCHEIBEL: No, because there' s a
5 finite limit and that' s one of the questions
Mr. Turner asked actually., and I answered as best
6 I could. They give you a tool to do your best job
at answering the route question, not of saying
7 what' s the coverage going to be right 'there,
what' s the coverage going to be there . There
8 actually is a program like that . It' s only been
determined in systems where there' s actually been
9 determined to be a problem where the customer has
paid Motorola for a certain level of coverage and
10 that level coverage isn' t apparent . There' s a
program called Factware where you actually drive
11 the whole geography, three square foot by three
square foot and it plots in 'and out of the
12 coverage .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That was
13 interesting but I don' t think it was pertinent . I
guess I'm trying to get at, you wouldn' t notice as
14 much difference with that program probably at 65?
MR. SCHEIBEL: In the red in the center?
15 No, all the changes the diameter in red.
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: We' re looking for
16 this 90 and the 90 is a number that comes out to
120 feet?
17 MR. SCHEIBEL: Right .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And 110 feet is not
18 90 any more, it could be?
MR. SCHEIBEL: 81 .
19 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That' s how you
chose this thing, there' s no other criteria?
20 MR. SCHEIBEL: Right . The parameters of
the equipment are fixed. The FCC license is
21 fixed. You can' t play with what the FCC gives
you. By the way, the FCC already approved it at
22 120 feet . They said it was okay. They seem to
think it was appropriate . They took away the
23 group of people who can cause interference, the
body that coordinates who can be on what channel
24 and what the reaches of that machine are allowed
to be, that is still done by two separate
25 agencies, and they continue to compare notes
before they grant the license and orient' s license
February 3 , 2005
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2 was granted at 120 feet .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Could you go lower l
3 with that license?
MR. SCHEIBEL: Sure . Can' t change the
4 pattern of the antennae, can' t change the gain,
can' t change the operator of the transmitter.
5 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: And you can' t go
130?
6 MR. SCHEIBEL: Can' t go 130 .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: That' s all I
7 have . The reason you chose this was 120 equals 90
percent efficiency?
8 MR. SCHEIBEL: Right . When I put all the
other parameters like the power of the hand held,
9 the size of the antennae, where it is on the
person, believe it or not, that all goes into the
10 program.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: Could you plot it for
11 us, say at 75, 85, 90 feet?
MR. SCHEIBEL: If that' s a request of the
12 fire department . There is something else, too, I
have not yet been paid for any of this . I have
13 not submitted an invoice because I typically do
this as a service to my customer because I 'm going
14 to build the system. This is the first one where
I spent -- I'm thinking around somewhere around
15 100 man-hours trying to do this . It' s usually I
go in, here' s the answer --
16 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: For the Board' s
information, would the fire department be willing
17 to let him do a couple different heights?
MR. SCHEIBEL: I actually checked my
18 results . I have a partner who has a shop down
west, and I gave him the parameters and let him
19 run it .
MR. CORCORAN: I think if you' re going
20 down that route you also need to know the number
for each of those heights for the efficiency
21 rates .
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: Being in the
22 industry for 20 years, this Board couldn' t look at
a 75 degree of frequence and a 100 degree
23 efficiency and see much difference . You wouldn' t
see the difference, honestly, you would say, oh,
24 look there are some spots there that aren' t there
that may look really complicated.
25 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It isn' t?
BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: No. That program
February 3 , 2005
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2 is basic, that' s what upsets me so much about the
fact that requires this or asking for this . If
3 we' re going to -- the Board is going to consider,
we' re not qualified to look at a 75 foot and a 120
4 foot height, look at that picture and say, oh,
this will be good enough for the fire department .
5 You won' t notice that much different . He could
print them out .
6 MR. SCHEIBEL: You end up with more holes,
when you look at the chart .
7 BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO : When you say it' s
90 percent, is it 90 percent to the blue, to the
8 red?
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: It' s the blue .
9 BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: The blue is 90?
MR. SCHEIBEL: (Inaudible) it gets to
10 where if you' re standing here the coverage is
great; when you go like this (indicating) you
11 can' t hear anything. That' s what happens when you
start to drop it . That' s when you start to get
12 into whatever the geography you want to cover is .
You say it' s 90 percent in that geography, that' s
13 when it' s nine out of ten times . I get in first
try in that geography, but like one of the things
14 that has come up for us, is they run a water
rescue team, so they wanted their coverage to be
15 out off the coast in both directions too. So if
they' re out in the Peconic, I think there was .a
16 ferry accident out here a couple years ago, the
FCC didn' t approve this . I don' t think the
17 licensing agency asked for it, but the way the
system is set up, the coverage is uniform as it
18 can be, but as you lower that number, it' s the
start, it' s how much spotier it gets .
19 Specifically, Plum Island we really see big
differences if they' re on a scene in Plum Island,
20 and they' re on the shoreline adjacent to the mine
lands, the coverage would be fine, but if they' re
21 putting out a building fire that' s around the
corner where the ambulance barn is, the coverage
22 would start to fail, that would be the
difference .
23 BOARD MEMBER ORLANDO: That' s your 90
percent?
24 MR. SCHEIBEL: Right . Same thing with
East Marion as they went to the outer edges of
25 East Marion or into the next district over, that' s
when you get into the works now, can you hear me
February 3 , 2005 .
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2 now, just like the joke on the cell phone
commercials .
3 BOARD MEMBER DINIZIO: With my questioning
I 'm getting at, we' re not qualified, this district
4 has decided on 90 percent efficiency. If we make
a decision that 85 is good enough, I have no idea,
5 how we can make that decision. We are not
qualified to do that . These people put their
6 lives on the line, and they are saying to us, 90
percent is good enough, 100 percent is good
7 enough, 90 percent is good enough, they' re still
going to have problems . I don',t think we can say
8 you can't have 90 , you have to have 75 based on
anything this gentleman could give us . That' s the
9 point I 'm trying to get at . That extra studies,
mesh up, all that . We are not, not even myself
10 are capable of comprehending that .
MR. TURNER: My only reply in response to
11 this is that the same argument could be made if
they said 180 feet and this Board does have an
12 obligation to decide whether 180 feet would be too
much.
13 MR. SCHEIBEL: In order to be 99 percent I
would have said 180 feet . As John said, there are
14 multi'location solutions .
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: John, one more thing.
15 MR. TURNER: Let me -- I think the way the
program works and what you do is you generate a
16 certain amount of power on talk out at 120 feet at
the Orient firehouse . You then divide up the area
17 into a grid, I don' t know what the grid parameters
are, so you have this huge grid. You compute the
18 received signal power at the center point of the
grid with the hands held at three foot off the
19 ground for talk out so you take a hand held three
foot off the ground, and at the center of one of
20 these grids and you compute the transmitted signal
strength that you' re going to receive, and you
21 give it a color, and so then you look at this, and
you see at the fringes it is where you' re going to
22 have difficulty as you lower the antennae
height . So the question is how do things change
23 at the fringes of the coverage? Now, in fact, we
could learn something and these are precisely the
24 plots that I have been asking for for three
months . Now the question I would ask is why
25 hasn' t it been forthcoming? I am capable of
interpreting.
February 3 , 2005
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2 MR. BOYD: Very simply, the plots are not
forthcoming is because they have not been done .
3 They are not done because we are looking for 90
percent coverage . 90 percent coverage is an
4 industry standard. It is a usual sort of thing.
The fire district doesn' t want to settle for less
5 than 90 percent . Ninety percent is important for
the safety of the firefighters not only the Orient
6 firefighters, but other firefighter that might
come to assist them in a mutual aid situation. We
7 have to get the coverage outside in the water area
around the district . Orient has a boat, rescue
8 boat that goes out . The other fire districts have
rescue boats . I 'm not going to bore you or go
9 overboard with ideas of the various things that
may happen that would require the convergence of
10 emergency resources in that area, we all know 'what
it can be, so let' s please provide the coverage,
11 the radio coverage that' s necessary to keep all
these people safe . That' s what it is about .
12 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: You have a technical
piece of information, ma'am? I would like to
13 bring this hearing to a close?
MS . LIBERTORE: My name is Mary Ann
14 Libertore, and I am a new resident of Orient, and
I am so grateful that John brought up the point
15 that has been disturbing me all day, which is I
rented with my significant other in Orient for
16 nine years, and then this past June we bought a
house and it' s really difficult for Sidney and I
17 to even think of disagreeing with our neighbors,
all of whom have been massively kind to us . We
18 live across the field from the tower, and that' s
not my beef, but when I was coming out here to
19 speak tonight at the request of my colleagues, I
was coming out on the bus and one of the things
20 that was so striking to me was all of these
towers, and you go along the LIE and you see them
21 one town after another, and I guess you only see
things when you want to look for them, but I saw
22 them today, and I was grateful to Mr. S,cheibel for
mentioning 911 because the reason that Sidney
23 isn' t speaking tonight, my fiance, is that he' s a
lawyer back in town, and he is working on the
24 Freedom Tower. He is lucky enough to be working
on rebuilding the World Trade Center, and I was
25 born and raised on Staten Island, so at my core
I 'm a cop' s kid. I grew up with four cops and all
February 3 , 2005
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2 firemen, so I understand the issue of fire safety,
particularly after 9/11 when many people that I
3 grew up with there, I understand what these
fellows are talking about . I didn' t know as a new
4 resident of Orient that we could go to fire
department meetings, and, Mr. Commissioner, if you
5 want me, I' ll be there, and I ' ll do fundraising
for you and everything, but I think as a Staten
6 Islander, I have a special thing to share with you
all .
7 I was born right at the end of World War
II , 11 months after my father came home after
8 being on Utah Beach. I grew up in Staten Island
in the ' 50s . I was a small child in the 150s . It
9 was like growing up in Kansas . I think one of the
things that struck me so much when I came out here
10 10 years ago for the first time was how this place
looks just like Staten Island in the ' 50s with the
11 wetlands and the beautiful golden fields and these
wonderful trees and I think if you permit this
12 tower to be built at this house are you going to
establish the tipping point, the thing that will
13 degrade our portion of the east end, not just
Orient, East Marion, and I think the logic is to
14 let the Greenport tower and the mesh system be the
new paradigm for how to protect these firemen.
15 That' s all I' d like to say.
CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I'm going to make a
16 motion to close the hearing and reserve --
MS . EMO: My name is Robin Emo, I live in
17 East Marion. And we had a meeting a week ago on
the same topic and one of the questions I asked
18 Mr. Scheibel and he said they work even better
than all these other cell and radio situations but
19 it was all about cost . I asked how much. It was
$1, 000 per satellite phone, 15 phones would be
20 required for East Marion, I doubt there' s a whole
lot more would be required for Orient . And the
21 problem he stated was you wouldn' t be able to talk
to people in the other towns, but if everybody got
22 the satellite phones, which are better quality, we
wouldn' t have towers . We wouldn' t have
23 discussions, we wouldn' t have to worry about the
health risks that may or may not be involved in
24 the towers, and I think it' s something that should
be looked into, and I wonder if the cell phone
25 companies hadn' t approached the firehouses, would
they even be talking about this . Why didn' t we
February 3 , 2005
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2 know that there were problems with the
communications systems until the cellular
3 companies appeared on the scene?
MR. BOYD : Lawyer and fire chief hat these
4 problems with the communications in the fire
departments have been growing over the
5 years . It' s not a question that it started all of
a sudden, basically it' s been getting
6 progressively worse . We' re finally to the point
where we have to do something about it .
7 CHAIRWOMAN OLIVA: I' d like to make a
motion to close the hearing reserving decision
8 until later.
(See minutes for resolution. )
9 (Time ended: 8 : 30 p.m. )
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2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
3
4 I, Florence V. Wiles, Notary Public for the
5 State of New York, do hereby certify:
6 THAT the within transcript is a true record of
7 the testimony given.
8 I further certify that I am not related by
9 blood or marriage, to any of the parties to this
10 action; and
11 THAT I am in no way interested in the outcome
12 of this matter.
13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
14 hand this 3rd day of February, 2005 .
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/Plorence V. Wiles
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February 3 , 2005